good ol' loudness...

[Jake_JW]

I just use iTunes and good ole windows media player then import the files into Cubase.

Not sure about other DAW's but I also create a second stereo output going to the same channels in my interface (i.e. my monitors) and send the reference tracks to that so I can hear them without my processing applied and at their real world levels for comparison if I have a reference 'loudness' in mind.

 

[andrushkiwt]

so, it was easier than i thought. i just put the cd in, opened windows media player, and clicked burn cd. turned them into files that i can open in my mastering session. piece of cake. ha.

do you reference them ever while mixing, or simply for mastering?

 

[Jake_JW]

Occasionally I do near the end of mixing a project, but it's perhaps of more limited value as you are comparing a mastered track with a raw mix. If you do then it's probably best to turn the fader for the reference track way down and try and match the percieved loudness to your mix.

 

[drtechno]

hey guys, question here on achieving a key point of mastering...loudness.

Aside from the usual "add a limiter" response, what else do you guys do to add some loudness to your track? for example, i usually use a tape saturation plug-in (though very, very minimally) as it has the added benefit of increasing the volume by 0.5 - 1db (i can select "hi" "low" or "neutral" on this plug-in, if i want to avoid affecting a particular end of the spectrum). after all my EQ work (i plug directly into an interface and overlay 10 guitar tracks, so it's difficult getting the sound just right going in) i usually lose a lot of volume on the track. i go into the mastering session with my peak at about -5db, do EQ work, and then find I have to set my limiter to -0.04 threshold and +6 or 7 input to get to an average RMS (K14) of -9ish.

It feels like simply smashing the input level up on the limiter is squashing my tracks. The obvious piece here is the mastering fader. Do you add db's on this fader? If so, what type of guidelines do you go by when adding volume via the mastering fader? any at all? I don't use compression in mastering, typically. I let the limiter do any squashing for now.

of course, i have only a years experience here, so feel free to tell me anything I may be doing wrong. i can already hear "do more of the EQ work in the mix".

i want to add a completely different question at the end here. nothing to do with the above: hypothetically, does mastering itself make the file more clear and/or of higher quality? Without adding any inserts, does simply hitting "make image" (my DAW's final step in mastering) make the file better off than the original wav that went in? again, no EQ, no anything...just hitting the button.

thnx

well I think you might want to revise how you get your mix, gain staging your signals before it hits any plugin for example.
but before I go into this in detail, I want to give you some background info for you to think about first.
when a signal is converted from a voltage to bits you have to understand the converter will accept anything from the analog input. now natural analog has significant dynamic ranges: from quiet to loud, that can not be transferred back from digital to analog. because all reproduction equipment can not achieve the same dynamic range as the source. There really isn't a true standard when it comes to digital, there is only conventions. if there was, there would be a "SRL" (standard recording level) button on the digital recording devices. Now as a musician, when I see a piece of written music ppp is the quitest and fff is the loudest I've ever seen on written music. how does that really translate in db? well there really isn't a direct number, just a perception. same with digital.

now over the years, its been adopted that -10dbfs is the signal peak that should be injected into a dsp plugin. But people tell me: really? then why is my signal sounds too plain and distorted if I bring it in so low?
well yes you can bring it that low if you have really nice equipment. but most likely you don't so you have to look at it in a different aspect. ... now we look at it as how good my analog signal could be. ok, so we track in at -4 on the absolute peak. but now we sucked out the headroom (so what it wasn't doing us good anyways). but now the signal is too big to go into the DSP correctly so we change our gain (either by trim or normalize) to get our peak back to -10. but some say its all too weak. well you just have to understand the quiet is too quiet compared to the loud parts. so the next thing is to compress to make the loud parts closer to the quite and gain the overall back to the -10 peak some tracks need lots more than others, but one track at a time needs to be visited first before we mix (or to put it in the old terms "balance" as people who mixed music was called balance engineers a long time ago). ... will continue this later as I have to go to work......

 

[andrushkiwt]

will continue this before I time out on my login.

made me laugh. i guess what i should have asked, to narrow it down a little more, was how to achieve loudness on the K-14 scale. That way, we are beyond perception and into something measurable.

here is my typical scenario. since i only record and mix my own music, i can be more rigid in my settings:

bounce the mix out with the peak around -6db.
import into mastering suite.
EQ work loses db's.
MBC adds db's. (usually set to around 1:1.5-1:1.8 per band with around +2db gain for each, depending on the song.
tape saturation adds a couple dbs.
more eq loses db's
limiter. (before the limiter, i'm usually around -6db peak volume. my average db is around -13ish, maybe -12. this is on K14.) i am having to crank the limiter up to around +6 to get to -0.04 (my set threshold).

if i have to crank the limiter past 6db, i tend to just bump up the master fader until i get close to the threshold. <--- what are your thoughts on that. using the master fader for db's. this was the reason for the post...should i avoid using it and add db somewhere else?

 

[drtechno]

made me laugh. i guess what i should have asked, to narrow it down a little more, was how to achieve loudness on the K-14 scale. That way, we are beyond perception and into something measurable.

here is my typical scenario. since i only record and mix my own music, i can be more rigid in my settings:

bounce the mix out with the peak around -6db.
import into mastering suite.
EQ work loses db's.
MBC adds db's. (usually set to around 1:1.5-1:1.8 per band with around +2db gain for each, depending on the song.
tape saturation adds a couple dbs.
more eq loses db's
limiter. (before the limiter, i'm usually around -6db peak volume. my average db is around -13ish, maybe -12. this is on K14.) i am having to crank the limiter up to around +6 to get to -0.04 (my set threshold).

if i have to crank the limiter past 6db, i tend to just bump up the master fader until i get close to the threshold. <--- what are your thoughts on that. using the master fader for db's. this was the reason for the post...should i avoid using it and add db somewhere else?

ok, I'll skip to chapter 3 lol I know its a lot of info in between, but let's see....basically, you need to shorten the db distance between your peak and average., your quiet parts vs the loud. so that is why your cranking the limiter up 6 db to shorten the distance. I shorten the distance on the individual channels instead of the master. but for you, I challenge you to mix without any plugin on the master, but your quiet parts be -10 and the loudest peaks at -8 on your scale.


that is the first hurtle you need to jump.

 

[ashcat_lt]

It feels like simply smashing the input level up on the limiter is squashing my tracks. The obvious piece here is the mastering fader. Do you add db's on this fader? If so, what type of guidelines do you go by when adding volume via the mastering fader? any at all? I don't use compression in mastering, typically. I let the limiter do any squashing for now.

In most DAWs, the Master fader is the last thing that affects the signal before it's sent to output - whether that output is a DAC or a file. I mention it because in some hardware setups this might not be the case, and that would change everything about what I'm going to say.

Use the compressors and limiters and whatever to achieve the crest factor - the difference between the loudest peak and the overall average, kind of K factor - that is appropriate. The Master fader can't help with that, but what it can do is set those loudest peaks (and drag the average with it) to whatever absolute value you want. You can usually do that in the mastering limiter one way or another, but there's no reason you can't just move the Master fader to wherever you want.

 

[andrushkiwt]

ok, I'll skip to chapter 3 lol I know its a lot of info in between, but let's see....basically, you need to shorten the db distance between your peak and average., your quiet parts vs the loud. so that is why your cranking the limiter up 6 db to shorten the distance. I shorten the distance on the individual channels instead of the master. but for you, I challenge you to mix without any plugin on the master, but your quiet parts be -10 and the loudest peaks at -8 on your scale.


that is the first hurtle you need to jump.

My mixing session has only 1 master plug-in. that's an EQ to roll off less than 20hz, and an occasional mid cut and/or 14hz boost. i don't add things to the mix fader, otherwise. also, it is always set to 0db when i bounce it out for mastering. the individual tracks vary in volume, of course, but some are extremely low. however, they sound loud as heck even at -36db. this is only some - usually heavy guitars. it might help to know i'm doing things digitally and through an interface for guitar and bass. drums are Superior Drummer.

 

[andrushkiwt]

You can usually do that in the mastering limiter one way or another, but there's no reason you can't just move the Master fader to wherever you want.

so, if i'm happy with the range of db's the MBC and limiter are providing me with, and I don't want to squash it any more or less, there's nothing "wrong" with bumping up the master fader to +2db in the master session?

 

[drtechno]

well there are no rules. there are some that bring it out, clip the signal about 5% and eq it otb then send it to another adc.

there is a $3600 box that does this btw: Gyraf Audio Gyratec XXI Magneto-Dynamic Infundibulum

if your getting the result you need, why ask?

 

[andrushkiwt]

if your getting the result you need, why ask?

you're right, i'm trying to waste everyone's time. lol

i never said i was happy with the result. you are misreading. what i said was that i'm happy with the dynamic range of the MBC of limiter, but not the overall level. once i start cranking the limiter up in gain, the range decreases, but I get the level i need. therefore, i was looking for ways to increase level by using methods such as tape saturation, or other things I haven't realized yet, while keeping the range i am satisfied with.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

you're right, i'm trying to waste everyone's time. lol

i never said i was happy with the result. you are misreading. what i said was that i'm happy with the dynamic range of the MBC of limiter, but not the overall level. once i start cranking the limiter up in gain, the range decreases, but I get the level i need. therefore, i was looking for ways to increase level by using methods such as tape saturation, or other things I haven't realized yet, while keeping the range i am satisfied with.

Once your peaks are at or near 0dBFS the only way you're going to get more level is to reduce the dynamic range.

 

[andrushkiwt]

Once your peaks are at or near 0dBFS the only way you're going to get more level is to reduce the dynamic range.

like i said, i found tape saturation can add some db's without losing anything (aside from the EQ work that was done so diligently). And setting the master fader in the mastering session up too. so, there are some other ways.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

like i said, i found tape saturation can add some db's without losing anything (aside from the EQ work that was done so diligently). And setting the master fader in the mastering session up too. so, there are some other ways.

Maybe what you're talking about is more the subjective side of things, but once headroom is gone any increase in level is by definition a decrease in dynamic range.

 

[andrushkiwt]

once headroom is gone any increase in level is by definition a decrease in dynamic range.

moving the master fader up doesn't decrease the dynamic range. it brings up the lowest volume and the highest, but the range stays the same. this thread has come to a dead-zone, lol. no worries, there are some things here i can take away from it. thanks buddy

 

[bouldersoundguy]

moving the master fader up doesn't decrease the dynamic range. it brings up the lowest volume and the highest, but the range stays the same. this thread has come to a dead-zone, lol. no worries, there are some things here i can take away from it. thanks buddy

If you're out of headroom and you raise the main fader it will clip which will decrease the dynamic range. It's a simple and inescapable fact.

 

[ashcat_lt]

But he's not out of headroom. He's got the dynamic range in the material he wants and is basically wasting headroom because his peaks are a few db down from 0. The master fader will quite effectively move that maximum to wherever he wants it and basically maintain the crest factor he was shooting for.

I spose it's worth mentioning that if the "tape saturation" is actually saturating at all, then it is by definition reducing dynamic range. That's what saturation is.

 

[andrushkiwt]

But he's not out of headroom. He's got the dynamic range in the material he wants and is basically wasting headroom because his peaks are a few db down from 0. The master fader will quite effectively move that maximum to wherever he wants it and basically maintain the crest factor he was shooting for.

I spose it's worth mentioning that if the "tape saturation" is actually saturating at all, then it is by definition reducing dynamic range. That's what saturation is.

Yes, thanks ashcat. I just want some opinions on moving that fader. Ive been doing that lately, but I was wondering if it somewhere, somehow negatively affecting quality or something else.

You know, when you google "mastering" and "loud", you get endless results on limiters. But everyone skips right over that master fader...so again, I'm just looking for opinions on using that when the range is appropriate.

Really? I'll have to look up that definition. It definitely pops it up a db or two...my stock plugin anyways. I have the options for high, low or neutral in regards to which frequencies it'll affect.

 

[Jake_JW]

Adding gain to the master fader should be fine if you're mastering in your mixing project file. It's probably better practise to add gain before processing rather than on the fader, though, given that the fader is more often than not after master buss inserts (so you run a theoretical risk of clipping).

If you add a clean plugin and do nothing with it other than adding gain to the output, making sure it's not processing anything other than adding gain then you'll get much the same result with less risk of clipping.
I just use the stock cubase compressor with everything set to 0 and add gain.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Adding gain to the master fader should be fine if you're mastering in your mixing project file. It's probably better practise to add gain before processing rather than on the fader, though, given that the fader is more often than not after master buss inserts (so you run a theoretical risk of clipping).

If you add a clean plugin and do nothing with it other than adding gain to the output, making sure it's not processing anything other than adding gain then you'll get much the same result with less risk of clipping.
I just use the stock cubase compressor with everything set to 0 and add gain.

This is all just wrong. Adding gain before processing will just smash the damn thing into the limiter harder, reduce the dynamic range even more and not get those maximum peaks any closer to 0 because then limiter just won't let it happen.

And how the fuck does using a plugin that does nothing but add gain do anything different than the master fader? Answer: It doesn't! It doesn't reduce your risk of clipping. It makes no damn difference at all. You know where the max peaks are hitting, you know where you want them to be. Simple math will tell you how much gain you need to get there. Set the Master fader to that number and you're fucking done!

OP - saturation is distortion and distortion limits dynamic range. The "tape" part means mostly that there some EQ/filtering around the distortion.