Gain Stage Error on old recordings

Nola

Well-known member
I'm mixing some old recordings from before I knew what I was doing, and I realized I gain staged for -18dbfs peak instead of rms. So the tracks are quite low (like -26db RMS). What would be the best way to salvage the situation?
 
Not sure there is a best way ? I use my DAWs normalize function, or, just drag the amplitude on the track graphic. You could play it and record it at a better level over analog, or, digital - might give you a better feel for where it should be. If you can get bit-for-bit over digital, that might be fun for a tune, or, two .
 
I'm mixing some old recordings from before I knew what I was doing, and I realized I gain staged for -18dbfs peak instead of rms. So the tracks are quite low (like -26db RMS). What would be the best way to salvage the situation?

I'm not sure that this is an issue, especially if they are 24 bit tracks. You're not really that far out of the ballpark. The tracks might be cleaner than usual. Signal to noise isn't anything like tape in digital. As long as you're under the bitter spot, there isn't really a sweet spot.
 
I'm not sure that this is an issue, especially if they are 24 bit tracks. You're not really that far out of the ballpark. The tracks might be cleaner than usual. Signal to noise isn't anything like tape in digital. As long as you're under the bitter spot, there isn't really a sweet spot.

Thanks, Lizard. It doesn't seem to be an issue with noise, but when I stabilize the faders in good positions, the entire mix is quiet.
How would you handle that? Right now on the master fader I pushed up the gain knob so the master fader reads -3db of headroom. That took +16db of gain. i.e. I kept the master fader at unity but pushed the gain knob on that channel up +16. It's the only way I could export the mix at a decent volume.
Is there a better way to do it?
 
If there's any plugins you have on the 2 buss that give you output gain options you might be able to nudge those a bit more than usual. How does it sound? If things are good the fader positions aren't important.
 
Does reaper have a trim (gain) control on the channel strip? If so, turn it up 12db.

I'm sure there is a gain plugin or process in reaper. Use that to turn it up.

If you can just turn up the clip gain, you could do that too.

You are just changing volume, any way you accomplish it, you are essentially doing the same thing, the same way. What ever is easiest for you.
 
I have used built in export and conversion options to target a level before. Hard time remembering where. I think I last saw it in foobar and Ardour ?

This is a really old utility I still use;
 

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If there's any plugins you have on the 2 buss that give you output gain options you might be able to nudge those a bit more than usual. How does it sound? If things are good the fader positions aren't important.

Thanks, Lizard.
It sounds surprisingly good when I turn it up using the gain. I don't have any plugins on the 2.

Does reaper have a trim (gain) control on the channel strip? If so, turn it up 12db.

I'm sure there is a gain plugin or process in reaper. Use that to turn it up.

If you can just turn up the clip gain, you could do that too.

You are just changing volume, any way you accomplish it, you are essentially doing the same thing, the same way. What ever is easiest for you.

Thanks, Farview. Why did you target 12db? Is that to leave more headroom for mastering?
Turning up the gain on the master channel (not the fader but the gain knob) doesn't harm anything?

Oh, and do the plugins on each channel require a hotter signal to work correctly? That was another concern that I might not be giving the channel plugins enough gain. I've read mixed things on that.
 
I said 12 dB because I was tired and didn't do the math correctly. I meant 8db, the difference between your -26db rms and the- 18db rms that it should be.

It depends on the plugin. Eq, delay etc... wouldn't make any difference. Compression and limiting would also work just as well, but the threshold would need to be set lower. As long as the threshold can be set low enough to get the effect you want, it won't make any difference.
 
...."doesn't harm anything"?

Of all the bugger math in digital processing, level math is likely to be the least harmful. That will be the gain adjustment and any normalize level deal, etc..


"require a hotter signal to work correctly"?

Plugs that are designed to emulate analog distortions with a over-driven front end, etc. can use that. Otherwise -50db rms works the same. I wouldn't imply that Plug developers use the same math, though. A lot of stuff does use the same libraries and routines, though - just getting a make-over at the Beauty Shop
 
I said 12 dB because I was tired and didn't do the math correctly. I meant 8db, the difference between your -26db rms and the- 18db rms that it should be.

It depends on the plugin. Eq, delay etc... wouldn't make any difference. Compression and limiting would also work just as well, but the threshold would need to be set lower. As long as the threshold can be set low enough to get the effect you want, it won't make any difference.

Great, thanks. Say 6 tracks are at the -26db. Is there any difference between +8db each of those tracks using their channel's trim/gain knob, or can I just +8db the master fader's trim/gain? Are those both equivalent moves? It seems like the first one might be a better approach since the plugins would get the volume they need, but I did automation on each track and it might mess with everything.
 
Great, thanks. Say 6 tracks are at the -26db. Is there any difference between +8db each of those tracks using their channel's trim/gain knob, or can I just +8db the master fader's trim/gain?
No.
Are those both equivalent moves?
Yes. The math is weird because of all logs and exponentials involved, but with nothing on the Master that might be level-dependent, it will be exactly the same thing.
It seems like the first one might be a better approach since the plugins would get the volume they need, but I did automation on each track and it might mess with everything.
As mentioned above, it only matters for non-linear plugs - things that compress or distort/saturate/clip/warm. But those plugs almost always have input gain and/or threshold controls, and I'd imagine you've dialed those all in by ear, no?

If I was starting a new mix with tracks that low, I would probably prefer to make this up at the item level so all the track level stuff "looks right". Literally just normalize the damn things and go. In Reaper, this is a non-destructive process - it literally is just automatic adjustment of the Item Volume. You can see and change what it's done to a given item by viewing the item properties. You can normalize from there, too, but it's probably a bit tedious with multiple items.

There's always the Item Volume envelope. I'm pretty sure it trims (adds to) whatever value is set in properties. Both of those actually affect the size of the waveform on the screen.

Then you've got the PreFX track volume envelope.

A lot of people complain that there isn't a specific Pre-FX trim/gain knob on tracks in Reaper, but we've got plenty places to adjust that, and each one is more or less appropriate for different situations. We do also have the JS Volume Adjustment plugin which you can stick anywhere in the chain that you might want, and there's a way to put that knob on the mixer if you really want. You have to be careful with that, though, because it has a built in (if adjustable) hard clipper.

But honestly that's all for future reference in other situations. Your issue now is that you've got a mix you're perfectly happy with, and it's just a little quiet at the Master. You can either dick around changing gains and comp thresholds and automation and basically (try to) rebuild your whole mix, or just turn up the Master fader. I mean...it's your decision to make. I know what I'd choose. ;)
 
Great, thanks. Say 6 tracks are at the -26db. Is there any difference between +8db each of those tracks using their channel's trim/gain knob, or can I just +8db the master fader's trim/gain? Are those both equivalent moves? It seems like the first one might be a better approach since the plugins would get the volume they need, but I did automation on each track and it might mess with everything.
Once the mix is done, just add the gain at the master. Adding it at the track level will mess with any compression, gates, distortion, etc... that you have going on in the mix.

Just remember that next time you run into the problem, get the track levels in the right range before you start mixing.
 
Thanks guys. Yeah I will just apply it to the master if that's not destructive to anything (I have nothing on the master buss). I'm going to keep the master fader at unity and just add volume with the master's gain/trim knob.

When I do that it throws things off a tiny bit (I think b/c of the Fletcher Munson Curve thing) and the mix sounds brighter/harsher all the sudden. That's why I thought maybe it was destructive, but now my guess is it's just our sensitivity to those brighter 2k-5k frequencies that are now louder. Or maybe I'm just not used to it and need adjustment period.
 
Just remember that next time you run into the problem, get the track levels in the right range before you start mixing.

For any serious mix I'll spend whatever time necessary at the start to get clip gains (PT term) where I want them. I've even gotten so used to it I'll do it with the sound off, setting them all by eye, then go back and fine tune while listening.

A fast and dirty way to do this is select all the audio, normalize to 0dBFS peak, then pull them all down together 15dB or so, then fine tune each track. Percussive tracks may need more gain.
 
If the tracks sound good, then the only real operational issue is the position of the faders so that lowering or raising a fader just isn't possible. There are lots of solutions, many mentioned here - but if the audio is not compromised, any that are convenient work for me. I've even set up a group, of just the problem track, and then used that to give me fader travel. In my studio, I rarely pay any real attention to levels as long as the master L&R are in roughly the right place. Headroom is so good that the method is rarely that important. I did for a while start to normalise things, but as long as I can see a meter moving to at least 50% of the visible scale, and the thing is at the right level in the mix, I no longer bother.
 
"I'm going to keep the master fader at unity and just add volume with the master's gain/trim knob".

If that makes you feel better, why not!
 
If it's already peaking at -18, then this only adds 3db. ???

It's a suggestion for starting mixes if the tracking levels are all over the map, not for fixing the mix in question. The OP's problem came from not having some standard procedure for starting a mix so I made a couple of suggestions.
 
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