blurry low end

F

FedePatane

New member
Dear all,

I am mastering my own tracks and have this difficult problem that you may help me with.

I am remastering this song:

https://soundcloud.com/federico-patan-1/layers-of-sound-will-you-single-remastered

and i am trying it in different sources. On most sources it sounds great ( or at least as good as i wanted it to sound) but i tried it on my bose ie2 headphones on my phone on my way to work and it sounds with too much bass and blurry. So my initial thought is that in all sources with extra loud bass, which unfortunatelly are a lot in the market, it will sound blurry and not so musical.

Ok, i know that people in this forum don't really like bose as a brand and that the sound signature is that it pumps up bass like crazy, that i know, but what i don't know is why it sounds a bit blurry on the low end.

Does anyone know what i did wrong? Any help is appreciated!!!!!

Thanks in advance!

Federico
 
How do commercial tracks sound through those phones? Also blurry and undefined?

If similar commercial stuff sounds fine through them but your mix doesn't, i'd think it's time to go back and make some subtle changes. Anything you listen to music on will have its own flavor...that's the benefit of listening through multiple devices. It shows you things you didn't hear before and presents it in a different way.

Will making changes for a little less low end sacrifice the sound out of the other devices in which in sat well? Perhaps those other speakers were lacking low end, and your mix has excess, so it sounds good through them, make sense? But when applied to a bass-boosted system, it suddenly is over-powering. You can fiddle with settings in the mix all day, and try to accommodate every listening device until the end of time, but at some point you need to be happy with how it translates in general.
 
How did you record the bass and the kick? They seem to be almost indistinguishable from each other..............only adding to the sort of muddy feel to the bottom end of the song. As well..........the vocals have a bit of a "piercing" sound to them................a bit thin and reedy at times. They actually lend even more of an effect of a muddy bottom end by contrast. The Bose headphones........are likely only pointing the problem out to you.........not causing it. If your other references do not translate bass properly.........and many don't of course......perhaps they're fooling you into thinking all is well on the bottom. Tell us more about your setup and perhaps we can help you more.
 
Thank you both for your replies.

First of all i do like my headphones and know they are not the problem, as mickster said, they are only pointing it out. I do use them to hear all sort of commercial music, specially metal which has a lot of low end in general, and i have gotten used to having it that way.

As I am in my home I do my mixed with headphones, (don't be mad at me for not using monitors!) , I use AKG k514. And later i try it on different sources, like a home stereo, laptop speakers and some other headphones I use at work.

as for the kick it is superior drummer with parallel compression, a lot of it. I do like how the kick sounds. As for the bass i recorded it using Line 6 pod x3 live with the ampeg amp sim. If I solo it it even has a nice top end to it. But in the mix and later in the master it muddies everything. What I did is something that i learned and it is to play the bass over the kick so, in theory, they should enfasize
each other. Evidently something is not right.

Perhaps i should go back to mixing and change the bass altogether, but then again, I am not yet a professional (obviously) but i want to learn.

I know that i can never make it sound great in every device, but where should I stop? I think it is a great improvement over the first time i tried to mixed and master it:

https://youtu.be/6wl1MDKdTsA

could a high pass filter on the bass at, lets say 120k, make it appart from the kick? or will it make it disapear?
 
Ok, i listened. i agree with Mickster...the problem is in the bass and kick mix...before you even get to worrying about mastering it for other systems.

I use SD2 and an amp sim for bass as well, so i can relate. 120 is not appropriate for a bass - to give you an idea, though every mix will be different, i HP bass around 40hz. 120 would be sucking the life out of it. the kick in SD has multiple mics, 3 i believe. If it sounds good in the SD program, then leave the volume difference between the mics the same after you bounce them out to the DAW. You can usually HP kicks around 20hz.

if i were you, i'd go back to the mix and solo the kick and bass and get those 2 sounding good together first. Once you have a foundation built with those 2, then work on bringing the rest in. My method is different than the next guys, but what works for me is taking the mids out of both the kick and bass. Nothing much in the 700hz area for either, and they clutter everything up. What are the settings on your amp sim for the bass? What vst's are you using on the kick? is there a kick bus? what's on it? work those 2 first. you can't build a solid mix with a cluttered rhythm section.
 
mmm, back to the mixing it is then.

on the kick there is an EQ to boost around 400K to lift the high kick so it will sound in speakers like a laptop. Then a compressor very subtle. There is a parallel compression bus for the kick and the snare really compressed but at low volume so it doesn't overpower the mix.

On the bass an eq and not much else. The settings on the amp i don't remember, since i recorded it some time ago and only have the wav in the mix. Perhaps reamp it with guitar rig or something like that, been wanting to try out positive grid's BIAS for some time.

I am not sure about those 700hz but it is worth trying. I have found out, just like you, that separating frequencies adds a lot of clarity to the mix.

Thanks for the advise
 
FedePatane said:
mmm, back to the mixing it is then.

on the kick there is an EQ to boost around 400K to lift the high kick so it will sound in speakers like a laptop. Then a compressor very subtle. There is a parallel compression bus for the kick and the snare really compressed but at low volume so it doesn't overpower the mix.

On the bass an eq and not much else. The settings on the amp i don't remember, since i recorded it some time ago and only have the wav in the mix. Perhaps reamp it with guitar rig or something like that, been wanting to try out positive grid's BIAS for some time.

I am not sure about those 700hz but it is worth trying. I have found out, just like you, that separating frequencies adds a lot of clarity to the mix.

Thanks for the advise
Click to expand...

i'm not saying exactly 700, just that the mids are sometimes not very useful, depending on the sound you want. also, use a compressor on your bass. aside from vocals, if any instrument benefits from a compressor, it's the bass. the rhythm should be consistent. comp helps this. i wouldn't think a kick needs a boost at 400hz...there isn't much usefulness there. kick boost are generally done in the lows (80 or 100, or around there) or high-mids for the beater (2k or so). personally, i drop everything out of the kick between 300-1k by about 10db on a wide q. this is just what works for my music. experiment. but boosting isn't something you should be looking into at this point anyways...it usually causes more harm than good. a solid foundation should be in place first.
 
Will try that, perhaps i can post a remix tomorrow with some changes.

Thanks for the 2k for the beater tip. i was looking for a much lower frequency.

Will try and compress the bass. maybe even parallel compress it, I must experiment a bit on that.
 
yes, this is a mix issue,
not a mastering issue.

you probably need to treat your room,
possibly use a room correction software,
possibly upgrade your monitors,
and spend a lot more time listening to pro releases thru them.

use software like SPAN, to learn what is happening with your low end frequencies,
and learn corrective eq techniques, using more cut than boost.
 
Ok, took me a while and i think I got a more even mix. I followed most of your advice and tried in a few things of my own as well.

First of all redid all the effects on the bass. I am not entirely happy, would have liked more clarity, but it is a very simple bass line so i think it is ok to be a bit in the background. Overall i am a lot happier than i was before. Turns out that the volumne was too high and over the kick. When the drums and bass are soloed they are great, but in the overall mix the bass losses clarity somehow, i am thinking something about the guitars that i can't put my finger on.

I think the kick is better now. more defined and more "separated" from the bass. At least in my opinion. I just reduced the release time in the parallel compresion track. It did the trick for me.

In the overall mix i changed the vocals as you said it had a bit of too much top end (a bit piercing) that enfasized the problem on the low end.

I did a little twicking on the master eq to lower the low frequencies as they were too high, and the bass volume also too high, so that was a good reason the low end was a mess, right?

here is the new render, what do you think?

https://soundcloud.com/federico-patan-1/layers-of-sound-will-you-single-remastered-v2

thanks again for listening and all your advice.

Federico
 
Well......compared to your first mix this is better. The bass is a bit more defined in tone but you did that mostly with a volume change I think. The kick is not much different to me. You play the bass notes and the kick pretty much on the same beats..........together.......through so much of the song. That's fine if that's how you wrote it but you have to realize that's going to make your bottom end more difficult to deal with in trying to have more clarity with separate tones. The kick......in my opinion only.......is still muddy. I know I'm being vague. Maybe I'm not understanding correctly how you want this song to sound so I'll let others give their 2 cents worth.
 
Thanks for your opinion Mickster.

The bass was redone all efects from scratch, not just volume.

You are right, i did play the kick and the base on the same beats, and that was on purpose. I just didn't realice it would cause so much problem. Actually I did it that way to make a big fat base for the song.

I am learning so I listen to everyone's opinion about this.

as for what i want it to sound like? I am in a path of discovery. I have a few ideas but wanted to find a my own path and not copy exactly someone else's style. For now I wanted it to sound as professional as possible.

Thanks again!
 
FedePatane said:
You are right, i did play the kick and the base on the same beats, and that was on purpose. I just didn't realice it would cause so much problem. Actually I did it that way to make a big fat base for the song.
Click to expand...

Kick/bass on the same beat is perfectly fine. You were on the right track about it making a fatter sounding low end, but you have to create a space for both instruments down there. Work with your eq and sidechain comp to bring everything into focus.

Now all bs aside, I'll get more specific and throw some opinions around. Take them as you may.
I think the kick's got too much mid/low mid fluff. I'd eq a wide chunk of that out and put a bit more of the upper click frequencies to further emphasize the kicks against the bass. The bass's problem seems to lie in the overall tone. Once again, a lot of muddy, pillowy low mids that are really killing the clarity. Also, the vocals have almost no low end body and sound very uncomfortable in the mix. Just as a ballpark reference, I prefer the high pass filter for vocals at around 165hz give or take. Do an eq sweep with a narrow band and find those screechy 3khz and 5khz+ area frequencies and smooth out that vocal tone by scooping a little out.
 
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I took my time to play with Eq's and compressors and came up with a new version.

I did strange stuff that actually cleared away some of the mud. I HP the guitars at almost 300hz and that cleared a lot of the bass. i took a bit of the kick at 100 since the bass was going from 100 to 200 (G to A to C to D not in that order of course) and i think that they don't overlap as much. So the kick became more sublow and more of a thud, but with real nice punch.

as for the vocals i didn't really change the eq, but changed from a single band compressor to a multiband compressor to really compress lower frequencies and i think that gave it a lot more body. Not that is perfect, but it is better than before. I think it has more body and clarity but it sounds a bit nasal now. perhaps just a little eq around 1k-ish for that. but nothing that takes away my sleep.

The huge change, though, i think was in the balance of the mix. i did change almost all the volumes to make it more even in all frequencies. I don't know if i succedded but definetly was an improvement. The song now sounds more Pop. with the voice on top and the mids a touch higher than everything else. I believe ( this is my opinion) that the overall mix sound a lot more defined and everything in it's place. The penalty? the bass became "something" in the background. Is this bad? i don't really know. I wanted it to be up front but coudn't do it without overpowering the mix. So the mix called for the bass to be in the back so there it is. Even though i think it is a lot better defined than before. I lost a lot of the power in the low end and gained clarity. Do any of you perceive the same? or is it just me trying to fool myself?

so here it is:

https://soundcloud.com/federico-patan-1/layers-of-sound-will-you-single-remastered-v14

Thanks a lot for taking the time to listen and comment!

Federico
 
As a mastering engineer by trade, if I was working with an artist/engineer on the delivery of your mix I'd probably recommend the following.
The kick could do with a bit of a pull back e.g. 2-3 dB from 150 - 220 Hz,
Also a 6dB low cut set at 50Hz to let the bass balance more in the low end.
And then a 1.5dB boost at ~110Hz on the kick
If you want to get that side of things easily in a home style set up, I think you would do well adding something extra to the headphones (as you are asking a lot of any headphone to cover the whole spectrum accurately) - for an example of how much even top headphones vary across the spectrum check out the graphs on headphones.com.
For low end maybe get a Subpac, it'll make that job much much easier :)

Also check e.g. in Voxengo Span plus the cross over of freqs between the kick and Bass,,, where there is lots, pull one back 200 - 400 is often a clashing area for kick/bass I find.
A bit of air on the vocal would also be useful i think, and maybe a 2dB push at 12kHz on the cymbals (Q of 1)

:)
 
Thank you very much for such a detailed response Gearshot!

I will be definitely will be trying out your suggestions. As for headphones i am unable at the time to have a room with treatment so headphones are the way to go for me. maybe at some point I can switch to proper monitors.

I do use Voxengo Span and the peak frequencies of the kick and the bass do not overlap. Kick is peaking at 90 hz and bass moves from 100 to 160-ish hz acording to the note i am playing.

I will be probably be changing the effects on the bass to try out some other bass amp and cab sims to see if the sound can change. I don't think i need to re-record it.

I keep wondering what do you mean, or how, can i give "a bit of air" to the vocals" ? I apologize if the question seems dull but i really don't know how to do that.

Will post again a render of the song when i have tried all the suggestions.

Thanks again.

Federico
 
Try Balancing your mixes from the start and you will have less issues of the kick not coming through "on any mix". Then you will less likely have to use compression or even side chain for that matter. Often balancing is a subject talked about the least in audio engineering. Simply balancing a mix can reduce high volumes, compression and extra effects needed in the mix.

Turn all of the faders down. Put the kick first (from the left) on your mixer. Bring that up first (shoot for around -8 -10dBFS) and THEN bring up all other sounds relative to that. Try in this sequence from left to right following relative instrument sound frequency ranges. [Kick] -> [Drums] -> [Bass] -> [Other Instruments]. It could solve a late problem early.

Also try HP and LP both kick & bass to taste & ear. (if the filters start to change the sound back off) this will surely clear room allowing both to breath and come through clearly in the mix because excess fq (or sound) has been filtered out.

And as others have said room treatment is key as well.
 
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Everyone,

Thank you all for your comments and taking the time to listen and give me feedback.

After all I believe you were all right in the regards that it was a mixing problem and not mastering. I re-did the kick and most of the drums as well and the bass. Not re-recorded, but remixed from scratch. This is what I got:

https://soundcloud.com/federico-patan-1/layers-of-sound-will-you-single-remastered-v16

Also I think it would be best to post here some of my learnings:
1.- I wanted to gain clarity by boosting volume, this was a huge mistake. All i did was blur out the mix.
2.- Natural sounding instruments are good live or in rehearsal, but definitely not in the mix. I found that the Eq and Compression i ended up using didn't sound natural or even sounded strange, but sat perfectly on the mix and helped each instrument to cut through on it's own and not step on another instrument.
3.- Instrument overlapping, It really took me a while to understand where to boost or cut when two instruments overlapped, specially kick and bass. searching for the highest point of each and making them complementary was key to this point.

I must have learned a lot more than that when tuning this track but those were MY big overall learnings.

And i think i have finally gotten to the mastering after a lot of going back to mixing.

What are your thoughts on this last version?
 
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