What Difference Does It Make?

I think your friends are being duped. There is no one out there charging bands for promotion who are getting anyone mega record deals. The record labels were the ones who used to pay for all the promotion and they recouped their costs out of the initial money when the album was successful. Often bands didn't get paid until ALL expenses including limos and liquor was paid off first. Today, I suggest you get with someone who loves doing video production and the two of you work out a plan to put your music on a great video. Post those on youtube at first. OK Go did it and they're famous now. But if you want to be rich today, you have to have the total package: looks, charisma, talent, voice, style and production. Look at the talent on The Voice. Even most of them don't make it and they're spectacular. Do a quirky and interesting video with a talented and creative mind and see if that doesn't get your further than paying someone to "promote" you.
Good luck,
Rod Norman
Musician and Engineer

Oweh said:
This is something Ive put alot of thought into the past few years. Im interested to hear your folks opinion on the matter.

Let me tell you my story:

Ive been playing in a few different bands for well over 10 years now. It always started out in good fun, but at some point everyone decided that we needed to be heard. That was the ultimate goal. Print albums, go on tour, get our tshits on their backs, (usually) loose money in the process. Offer free downloads to those who were too broke (or cheap) to buy. All to get the music heard. At some point I started to study how music marketing works, how copyright works, all the business side of things. All in an effort, to increase our chances of getting HEARD.
Im sure this is a familiar story to many...


Well, In the last few years, I began to feel very burnt out from playing "the game". So I quit. The bands I was in, either disbanded or announced hiatuses, and I walked away. I was a noob "engineer" for years during all this, and once I stopped playing, I started focusing on recording and mixing, as an effective way to waste my time.
At some point during all this, I started a crappy solo recording project. 50% because I wanted to explore a particular genre, 50% because I wanted something to hone my mixing skills on.

Last week I started working on my 9th album for the project. I never had expectations that it would come this far, and I still enjoy the hell out of it. I think for one particular reason: Ive never shared it with anyone. Asides from playing it for a few close friends, I have given it ZERO promotion. Ive never printed an album. Never once made a facebook post or a youtube video. Ive never worried about writing a hook, or wether or not a lyrical pattern is effective, because Ive never been concerned if someone else would hear it. Im simply CREATING, and Im doing it for myself. Granted, there are alot of songs that arent very good, I have a few that I consider my "gems"...
And im ok with all that.


Lately, the music scene where I live has grow substantially. Many bands, many friends Ive toured with and shared many a beer, are starting to find a decent level of "success"... Theyre being heard. Many of these people are also doing (IMO) questionable things to get heard in the first place.
Theyre travelling 1000's of miles to record with the greats. Paying more than they can afford for better sounding albums with big producer names on them. Theyre paying these promotional companies that exist now, top dollar to spread a good word about them when they go on tour. I know people that have offered So-and-So large amounts of $$$ to get introduced to the big names in marketing, to get their foot in the door of labels. Joining "bandwar contests" and spamming their friends for votes, so they can win and play a huge show somewhere for better exposure.
Most of these people could have put a down-payment on a house by now with all the "promotion" theyve hired. And these people arent stupid. Theyre well aware of how things REALLY work. Everyones heard the story of the artist who sold 100.000 copies and could barely cover their rent.

The point Im making in all of this is, what difference does it make?

We all started out on this path for the same reason. Because we had the fire inside.
Were you concerned with facebook likes when you first picked up an instrument or a paintbrush? Of course not.

Of course its natural for an artist to want to share their work.

What length do you go to, to be noticed?

And in the end, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?


Thank you.
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Rod Norman said:
I think your friends are being duped. There is no one out there charging bands for promotion who are getting anyone mega record deals.
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Maybe I missed something, but I didn't read where the OP said anything about "mega records deals". Just that his friends are seeing 'a decent level of "success"'.
 
Oweh....

I get all your points, but the danger of the sentiment is "Why Bother"? At that point the white flag is being raised, & it is over. But what exactly is over? The fact that someone younger and better looking took our spot on the National Stage?

Okay so I won't be the "Special Music" on the tonight show & I'm still not sure why I haven't been asked to sing the National Anthem at a Dodger game....But I do what I do, because that's who I am....

More than that, I still will pay the cost in all aspects of life; Family, friends, Music & Business......I ALWAYS do the freakin' best I can, because I really suck when I don't.....

When I find myself saying "What difference does it make " or "Why bother", I know I'm in a bad spot....When I give up on anything, it ain't good.

So I regroup, get inspired and go "All in again"....It's how I'm built....

My motto is this " I will do today what other's won't, so tomorrow I can do what other's can't"........

So.....Do what you do, how only you can do it, & enjoy the ride.....
 
Wiser words have never been spoken!
Great job, Great insight, Jimi.

---------- Update ----------

Wiser words have never been spoken!
Great Job, Great Insight, Jimi.
 
Illsidgus said:
I specified that I just wanted to make music for the joy of making music and was not interested in extensive gigging or becoming rich and famous.
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The problem with that sort of attitude is that unless you own the places where you want to play (e.g. your basement and backyard), somebody's got to get paid for your shows. Even if everyone involved in the band agrees that it's just a hobby, if you want to play your local bars, etc. they need you to promote your music so that they can cover their operating costs.

If I could work my day job all week and then play some random club show every Friday and Saturday, that would be the best, but if you want to play in front of anyone at all and gig more than once every 6 months, you've got to promote your crap.
 
Illsidgus said:
For a while I tried to find local musicians through Craigslist. I specified that I just wanted to make music for the joy of making music and was not interested in extensive gigging or becoming rich and famous. Know one was interested..
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Also, no offense or anything but chances are folks in the 'musicians' section are looking to get something going with other players. It is tough enough to get regular members to show up to "established band" practices, and in my experience at least 90% of craigslisters flake out. At least. I think the last ad I'd waste time on is one full of hemming and hawing about limitations and what you won't do, family or not. Guess I'm just some vapid highfalootin' rock star wannabe.
 
VomitHatSteve and Fat_fleet I understand what you are saying and don't disagree with you at all, but I have been playing in bands since the mid 1960s and am too tired for all the nonsense that you have to put up with when dealing with the enormous egos of most musicians. I also understand the desire to be a rock star. In 1986 the band I was in with my brother recorded a couple of songs for Liberty Records and through every fault of our own, the deal fell through but at least I had a shot at some measure of fame. Somewhere out there, wherever the holdings of Liberty Records ended up, are a couple reels of tape with my bass playing on them.
At any rate, your points are well taken.
 
Illsidgus said:
too tired for all the nonsense that you have to put up with when dealing with the enormous egos of most musicians. I also understand the desire to be a rock star.
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Right? Somehow, you've got to strike the balance between the voice in your head that insists that you create your art and get everyone in the world to hear it and that voice that says "I don't want to put up with this bandmate/promoter/gig bull****"

:D
 
I think it comes down to , do you want to eat off your music. the more fan you get, the more costumers, thus more income. you are a brand ...
 
It's a curse!!!! it makes no difference, music does not change the world, all you need is money not love and we're all idiots. But it's fun
 
How about selling "WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?" t-shirts? Plenty of jerkoffs like wearing shirts that are supposed to pithy or fake-profound, but this one has the power to completely break the will of someone if he actually ponders the question. That kind of power is a bargain at $15 a pop.

And even if they're a flop, what d....
 
I think some people are born with an innate desire to create music.

Sometimes these people come to believe that the path to fulfilling this desire is through a commercial avenue, such as forming a band, signing a contract, then make lots of money off record sales. That's kind of the attitude I had in the sixties and seventies.

At some stage in my life (maybe around the turn of the century) I realised that striving for commercial success is not necessarily a good way to fulfil the demands of that musically creative pressure. When I gave up seeking popular acclaim or commercial success I found I enjoyed music way more, and found myself doing heaps more interesting things.

My view is that using music as a pathway to fame is a mistake. The end game should not be fame, it should be personal satisfaction. However, it is always possible that in the pursuit of personal satisfaction, fame may be bonus side-effect.
 
gecko zzed said:
I think some people are born with an innate desire to create music.

Sometimes these people come to believe that the path to fulfilling this desire is through a commercial avenue, such as forming a band, signing a contract, then make lots of money off record sales. That's kind of the attitude I had in the sixties and seventies.

At some stage in my life (maybe around the turn of the century) I realised that striving for commercial success is not necessarily a good way to fulfil the demands of that musically creative pressure. When I gave up seeking popular acclaim or commercial success I found I enjoyed music way more, and found myself doing heaps more interesting things.

My view is that using music as a pathway to fame is a mistake. The end game should not be fame, it should be personal satisfaction. However, it is always possible that in the pursuit of personal satisfaction, fame may be bonus side-effect.
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I agree with that. I've never felt that my kind of music had any chance for success, so commercial success never really even entered my mindset. I just play the music I wanna play because I like it. To this day I feel that way more strongly than ever. I write, record, and play gigs for my own enjoyment. I couldn't care less if some other fuckass likes it or not.
 
It's nice to see two sides of the coin around here, but it's important to acknowledge that there are two sides to the coin.

Greg, hearing you talk about music for enjoyment and all the rest makes sense.
You're not a child and you don't have some childish fixation on being rich and famous through music.

Most people who have that eventually grow out of it because the odds are so heavily against, but I've still very quickly grown to hate the idea that it's always pure luck.

For some overnight popstar who just gets picked up on a whim, sure, it's pure luck, but there are hard working musicians who make things happen for themselves and have half a chance.

The problem is that everyone now has the tools and the illusion that they're owed something.
For me it's no different to dreaming of being a rich engineer or producer.

The odds are a against it but, if it happens, it's probably not dumb luck.

The difference with music is that there's the potential to be 'picked up' and exploited, so there can be a dumb luck element if you're a nice little pop singer or whatever.

Maybe geography plays a part in it, I don't know, but I know plenty of people from within a 30 mile radius, who are now pursuing big careers in music.
All of them worked/are working for it, and I'm not sure how much emphasis I'd put on luck with them.
 
Are those hard workers you know pursuing big careers, or do they have big careers? There's a big difference. I think it's pure dumb luck because it is. Right place, right time, right look, that's all that matters. How many bands toil and sacrifice for years and years and still go nowhere? Way more than end up being "successful". Are they not working at it? Bands go on ill-fated tours to spread their disease, live on 6 bucks a day, spend nights in a smelly old van, scrimp and sacrifice, and get nothing out of it. What little money they do make, they sink it into a studio to make an album. No one buys it. Are they not working? In pretty much every other career, hard work pays off. Doctors, plumbers, construction workers, whatever. Work harder, work smarter, and you move up in your field. The music business doesn't operate in that way. It's a business that relies on the idiot plebeians of the world to approve of your work. There's the rub. You can't make your own destiny in music. You must rely on the approval of idiots, and that's rarely a recipe for success.
 
Greg_L said:
Are those hard workers you know pursuing big careers, or do they have big careers? There's a big difference. I think it's pure dumb luck because it is. Right place, right time, right look, that's all that matters. How many bands toil and sacrifice for years and years and still go nowhere? Way more than end up being "successful". Are they not working at it? Bands go on ill-fated tours to spread their disease, live on 6 bucks a day, spend nights in a smelly old van, scrimp and sacrifice, and get nothing out of it. What little money they do make, they sink it into a studio to make an album. No one buys it. Are they not working? In pretty much every other career, hard work pays off. Doctors, plumbers, construction workers, whatever. Work harder, work smarter, and you move up in your field. The music business doesn't operate in that way. It's a business that relies on the idiot plebeians of the world to approve of your work. There's the rub. You can't make your own destiny in music. You must rely on the approval of idiots, and that's rarely a recipe for success.
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It's a bit of both.
To be fair most of them are in pursuit and doing OK, but a few have certainly broken through.

The ones who have have done their ten years of gigging and 4 albums that no one ever heard, or whatever and over time have built up the fan base or connections to really start making things happen.
I am starting to think geography's a big factor, though. I've heard you talking about time/money being wasted on big tours and stuff and I guess that's much more of a thing in the states.

I mean, I'm travelling to a studio tomorrow that's on the other side of the country.
That's like.....50 or 60 miles. :p
Ireland's about the size of Idiana...I think.

The guys here seem to make a name in Ireland which, to be fair, isn't that hard if you're good, then they carry it to UK which, again, isn't that unrealistic if you're good and have the backing in Ireland.
If it works from there, fair play.
Maybe it's just easier and cheaper to approach because there are obvious stages and targets to aim for?

Obviously plenty of people put in the work and get nowhere - I'm not saying rewards are a given for hard work, but what I am saying is that it's not necessarily pure luck if someone succeeds.

You're right about relying on the approval of the idiots, although I think work smarter applies there.
If you think you can write music that will appeal to those idiots then that's a smart move which might pay off.
Obviously it might not, but if it does it wasn't pure luck.
 
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I don't want to come across like I'm being argumentative for the sake of it. You know that's not my style.

I'm just saying, for the very small few who have the prerequisite talent, who work hard, and who treat the music industry like the business that it is, it's unfair to say their career is built on luck.
That very small few have earned what they have.
 
That's fine, we'll just agree to disagree. You believe in hard work, I believe that success with music in this era is just pure dumb luck.
 
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