General RFC - what makes a song "Good"

bleonard

New member
My question is this - what makes a song "Good"


1. Is it the music?
2. Is it the talent of the musician?
3. Is it the lyric?
4. Is it the talent of the singer?
5. Is the the recording/mix/mastering/medium?

In order to discover the answer to this question I will attempt to eliminate the previous possibillities:
(If there are any missing please comment)


Regarding question 1:
There are a finite number of notes (12) in modern music theory
There are a fintie combinations of these notes that are sonically pleasing(chords)
There are a finite number of sonically pleasing progresssions of chords/notes.
(Most popular music can be defined by ~30 progressions)

There are thousands of songs utillizing the same notes, chords and progressions - some are considered "good"
most are not.

Conclusion -NO.

Regarding question 2:
Ignoring the relatively few masters of instruments who can produce compositions within
these these constraints (notes, chords, progressions) that are nearly impossible to duplicate live -
(very few of these efforts show up on popular music charts) -

I know instrument players capable of "covering" nearly every POP song note for note - thus it cannot be the talent of
the musician (except as conceded above)

Conclusion -NO.

Regarding question 3:
I do not think that the lyric can be eliminated as - no two songs are lyrically identical.

Conclusion -Yes.

Regarding question 4:
Just as there are instrument players capable of perfectly reproducing a song there are singers that can also
sonically reproduce lyrics.

Conclusion - No.


Regarding question 5:
The mechanisms/techniques for Recording/mixing/mastering/medium are reproducible and IMHO although
they can make a good song bad - they cannot make a bad song good.

Conclusion - No.


----------------
This indicates to me that the key to a good song is lyric.
Please do not misunderstand this conlusion.
The music must be well written (within the constraints of modern music theory), well played,
lyric must be well sung, and the song must be well recorded, mixed, mastered copied etc.
----------------

It seems I should be concentraing on writing good lyric.
------------

Comments and thought are appreciated.

brian
 
I looks as if you have answered your own question, but at the risk of being redundant to your own comments, lyrical content is indeed a big factor. The one thing that comes to mind is poetry, which is sorta like a song without music, reinforcing the lyrical concept. A song can be great lyrically, but if it blows chunks musically, it certainly won't become a "great" song. Conversely, if the melody is pleasing or catchy...whatever, and the lyrics just don't cut it...it will be one of those songs you end up hating because you can't get it off your mind. My daughter wrote a song not long ago, and when I first heard it I thought "damn, that's a great tune". Then I read the lyrics....it's called roadkill, about some damn dead armadillo baking in the sun! That would be one of those tunes you would love to hate.
Anyway...that's my dimesworth (probably not that much)

bd
 
I cant tell you what makes a good song and im sure that its hard for anybody else to as well because we have all heard horrible music that somehow finds its way on the charts. But i think you are right in that if you have a good vocals and music the more people will like it, but in the long run if you chase after what you think people will like then you are probably playing catch up.
my best advice is to write what you like and let the masses decide if it is good I hope this helps.

Jeb
 
I disagree with your point of view. You clearly manipulated your way of thinking so that you came to the lyrical conclusion.

You said no single song is 100% lyrical identical to another. I think it's like music in songs: no 2 songs are exactely the same (small variations, other arrangment, different instrument sound) but many songs and lyrics are alike.

bdbdbuck confirms it: there are lots of songs with bad lyrics that are good songs. Just think about 'Whiter Shade Of Pale': those lyrics don't make sence while lots of ppl think it's a really romantic song.

you also are completely wrong when you dismiss the talent of the musician and the singer. Talent is something different than having a good technique or playing the notes on the right way. Talent requires interpretation, feeling, flair! Think of Jimi Hendrix: he didn't play 'good' on a classical way, but he is the most talented guitarist ever in my opinion. Think about singers like Lou Reed or Bob Dylan: technically they aren't good but they can shape a song to their voice and their caracther made the songs what it is.


a good song is a combination of factors. You are totally wrong with your lyrical concentration.
 
In your scientific approach, you said that certain elements were eliminated because they could be duplicated by others "covering" those works. Yet, you said that no two songs were lyrically the same.

If you are going to bring covers in the situation, the lyrics are eliminated before the music is. I hear a lot of covers that are musically completely different than the original, but the lyrics are still exactly the same.

As far as what makes a song "good", there is no universal definition or criteria. Every individual listener of a song makes their own determination as to the quality of that song. That determination could be based on who knows what, and its different for every person. Some people like lyrics, some just a cathy tune, some just a good beat.

If you want to know what makes for a "popular" song that sells millions and makes you rich, thats a little easier to define, although its still not concrete. But in general, if you can make a song that has a very memorable hook, either musically or lyrically, or both, is competently performed, and is fairly well produced/recorded; you are halfway there. Don't even worry about the intelectual quality of the lyrics. The majority of the people who make up the Billboard statistics don't worry about that either. The biggest ingredient to this mix, though, is exposure. There are thousands of catchy songs that are not hits because no one has heard them. Exposure comes by either luck or money, which gets that song heard by someone who tells the masses what is "good".

***for the record, I usually 'qualify' songs by the music, then make the heavier judgment by the lyrics. But there are still some cases when the lyrics don't do anything for me, but the music is still so good that I love the song.
 
I think you have missed some critical points like (in no particular order):

- Emotion & Honesty

- Performance

- Vibe / feel

All are intangible for sure but I think they are more important then many of the items you listed. Many many bands have written songs based around 3 chords & "she left me" themes but the ones that ring truest and put you in their shoes are the great ones.

Cheers
Kevin.
 
i know a song is good when i start shaking my ass and stop thinking about killing myself!

or sometimes it's the other way around. . .
 
to me i always hear lyrics first...then a vibe or feel, now if you can meld those two together.....great lyrics with a great vibe......GOLDEN!







j
 
What makes a great song.

Inspiration

I have heard great songs played on a piano or a guitar with one voice.
If it makes you dance, cry, angry, laugh, think etc.
Its gotta chance
 
her'es what makes a great song

you know a great song when you hear it and everyone agrees. there are some songs out there that no one can say are bad, stairway to heaven, lean on me, free bird, etc

What makes a great song is when you can get a fan excited about the song, when you can get em shoutin or dancing or blow their mind with some pink floydish/grateful deadish out of this world jamadellia. There are other elements, but one thing's for sure, eveyone has different tastes and reactions to the song vary.
Who was the science nerd that started this methodical tunnel vision of a link anyway???????
 
I would be the said "science nerd"

I was trying to understand what produced the

"get a fan excited about the song, when you can get em shoutin or dancing or blow their mind with some pink floydish/grateful deadish out of this world jamadellia"

reaction.

Did not think it was "tunnel vision" - only thought that with a finite number of variables it might be possible to identify the most important (likeable) element of a popular song.

In my experience the songs I write that emotionally carry the most significance are rarely enjoyed by others - and those that are simply musically sound yet emotionally meaningingless are well received.

Cheers,
Brian
 
maybe this will help

all information was obtained from "the art of mixing"

1-concept or theme(the mood, the flow, the aura of the song)

2-melody(catchy, hummable)

3-rhythm(variation, tempo)

4-harmony(notes played)

5-lyrics(rhythmically correct, not too many or too few syllables, heartfelt, poetic, sincere)

6-arrangement(the number of sounds that are playing at any given moment, including how many sounds are in each frequency range)

7-instrumentation(make sure the instruments: guitar+amp, drumkit, vocals, sound good before it's recorded, don't fix it in the mix)

8-song structure(order and length of song: intro, verse, chorus, lead break, bridge, vamp) any of those shouldn't be too long.

9-performance(a,b,c,d,e)

9a-pitch(all instruments should be in tune)

9b-timing(should be stable)

9c-technique(depending on style of music each instrument should
be played to accomadate it. you may have to pop the kick drum with your foot, whack the snare drum, try not to cause any string buzz or squeeking as you move up and down the neck of a guitar.

9d-dynamics(make sure it fluctuates apropriately and musically for the song. level of emotional intensity should be placed throughout the song accordingly.

9e-greatness(goosebump factor. refine the song perfect it, unless a deadline or budget prevents it. be determined to get it perfect)

10-quality of equipment and recording by the engineer(good recording levels, good micing techiniques, shape of recording gear)

11-the mix(the mix may only be one small part of everything that goes into creating a great overall recording; however, it is one of the most powerful aspects because the mix can be utilized to hide weaknesses in other areas.)

  1. [/list=1]
 
I think that pseudo-scientific analysis of what is really an art form has kinda lead you up a blind alley.

In popular music, I think the music matters more than the lyrics. Are there are *so* many songs out there with "bad" lyrics that are still "good" songs.

However I think you're mistaken if you think that you can 'break down' the art of songwriting like that. In reality, I think it's a mixture of all these things. The whole is more than the sum of its parts. It's the coincidence of the melody, the harmony, the lyrics, the arrangement, etc. etc.

I think you have to take a wholistic view.

But, I'd say concentrate on all the elements - get the *all* right - good lyrics, good music, good production etc. etc. - but, moreover, they need to be good as a whole, rather than a set of parts.
 
originally posted by moley
However I think you're mistaken if you think that you can 'break down' the art of songwriting like that. In reality, I think it's a mixture of all these things. The whole is more than the sum of its parts. It's the coincidence of the melody, the harmony, the lyrics, the arrangement, etc. etc.

whatever guy:rolleyes:, i just listed the components that make up a song, it's up to the artist to determine which part plays the most important roll in their song. i never once mentioned that EVERY element has to be met, but you can bet your a^% that it takes a combination of more than one to make it great. great parts make a great whole but, you can correct me if i'm wrong.

In popular music, I think the music matters more than the lyrics. Are there are *so* many songs out there with "bad" lyrics that are still "good" songs

duh, it depends on genre. jazz, heavy metal no, hip hop, r&b yes.

It's the coincidence of the melody, the harmony, the lyrics, the arrangement, etc. etc.

yeah, for some, but for others, you need guidance, professional influence. there are not many artists who COINCIDENTALLY go platnum.

I think that pseudo-scientific analysis of what is really an art form has kinda lead you up a blind alley.

karate, culinary, interior decorating, carpentry, etc, etc......., are all art forms and the best people in the buisness have mastered the elements that contribute to the whole in order to become GREAT, not good at what they do.

so you can sit in a room and hope to come up, COINCIDENTALLY, with a GREAT song or you can come up with an ok song like the majority of us and work on it to make it GREAT.

for the record, (i) don't think great songs are coincidental, unless: you just happen to come up with a song, and someone just happens to come up with some music, and you both had no intentions of playing them together when you created them, but you somehow do, and by coincidence it just happened to sound great together, you record it, and by coincidence it's a hit. we have been listening to music most of our lives and our brains go through a little check list like the one above, guiding us to what we are used to hearing as a great composition.

everything i have posted is my personal opinion, and i respect your personal opinion. i just wanted to express where i am coming from with this.
 
jugalo180 said:
whatever guy:rolleyes:, i just listed the components that make up a song, it's up to the artist to determine which part plays the most important roll in their song. i never once mentioned that EVERY element has to be met, but you can bet your a^% that it takes a combination of more than one to make it great. great parts make a great whole but, you can correct me if i'm wrong.

Well that's what I was saying!

duh, it depends on genre. jazz, heavy metal no, hip hop, r&b yes.

That was intended to be a generalism. Anyway, I said "I think" at the start - it was my point of view, not objective statement of fact. Is my point of view wrong, now?

yeah, for some, but for others, you need guidance, professional influence. there are not many artists who COINCIDENTALLY go platnum.

You misunderstand me. When I said coincidence, I didn't mean it was by random chance. Read it again. "It's the coincidence of the melody, the harmony, the lyrics, the arrangement, etc. etc" - I meant the way these elements coincide, the way they combine - that's why I said coincidence. I wasn't suggesting it was by random chance, not at all.

karate, culinary, interior decorating, carpentry, etc, etc......., are all art forms and the best people in the buisness have mastered the elements that contribute to the whole in order to become GREAT, not good at what they do.

Yeah - what's that got to do with what I was saying?

so you can sit in a room and hope to come up, COINCIDENTALLY, with a GREAT song or you can come up with an ok song like the majority of us and work on it to make it GREAT.

Like I say, you got me all wrong buddy.

for the record, (i) don't think great songs are coincidental, unless: you just happen to come up with a song, and someone just happens to come up with some music, and you both had no intentions of playing them together when you created them, but you somehow do, and by coincidence it just happened to sound great together, you record it, and by coincidence it's a hit. we have been listening to music most of our lives and our brains go through a little check list like the one above, guiding us to what we are used to hearing as a great composition.

everything i have posted is my personal opinion, and i respect your personal opinion. i just wanted to express where i am coming from with this.

I didn't say it was a coincidence. You misunderstood me.

By the way, my orignal comment of "pseudo-scientific analysis of what is really an art form has kinda lead you up a blind alley" was aimed at the original poster's breakdown - not at your post.
 
Jamals gonna flame me but...........

The largest "power" (for lack of a better word) a song has is its beat. (now sit down you guys!)

Its like the easiest method of grabbing someones attention. You can be doing something and tapping your feet to a tune without hardly giving an attentive listen.
Its the #1 way of getting people interested (IMVHO)
Couple that with a catchy melody and you are on your way.

Now that is NOT to say that Folk musicians with their stories and poetic manners of music don't have power also. I am only saying that the toe tapping reaches the masses quicker.

As far as lyrics, They are secondary to me :D
I always use the analagy that if lyrics were important, then YES wouldn't have sold one record. They were big because of their musical prowess, and the melodies they sang covered up for the fact that their words meant......well...........nothing.


I know this is disturbing to alot of people and frankly, maybe we just disagree.
If I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time:D











Hang on Jamal while I go find my asbestos suit..........;)

Joel
 
okay

sorry about that moley, i guess i need to calm down. i think we both kind of misunderstood each other. my humble apologies.
 
Back
Top