New DAW build advice.

polarity said:
DM60: If you have any sources on that I'd love to read it. Depending on how many tracks of stored audio you have I would assume the tracks loaded into the DAW would have to be read by the drive (not just stored in memory). I could easily be wrong as I've never read anything that talks about it, just making a guess.

Anything you have that I could read up on would be great though, I'd love to understand it further.

**Edit: I misread, I thought you were saying SSD wouldn't help with performance in audio work, but you were talking specifically about recording latency
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In a way I was saying that. The performance gain will be nominal at the level most of us work at. I have a regular hard drive, have 15-20 tracks of audio and I am not seeing any issues. I could see loading a project faster if it were on an SDD, when the DAW is bringing in all of the data at once (maybe 5GB of data), but once it is loaded, and the files are located, it is actually streaming the audio which is much smaller data. Seems like the DAW/drivers guys have everything working rather well.

I am not saying SDDs don't give you some gain (just pure read/write numbers clearly show that it does), I just don't think it is that magical end all, be all, must have essential hardware for the majority of us. I think we over recommended sometimes.
 
I could see that being correct. Usually I want all around performance and the SSD provides that. I want my audio to work flawlessly but I also want the computer to boot quickly, open/run quickly.

I would think you would still see increases with plugin use on multiple tracks, etc. Again though I could be very wrong as I am guessing more from what I know about computers than what I know about audio work, which could be quite different
 
polarity said:
I would think you would still see increases with plugin use on multiple tracks, etc. Again though I could be very wrong as I am guessing more from what I know about computers than what I know about audio work, which could be quite different
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I think performance for plug ins are plug in dependent. Most are CPU dependent I think. Not sure how much you gain with an SDD. I too am looking at it from a computer perspective.
 
I went with an i7 for my new recording workstation, and I love it. Granted I upgraded from an AMD dual-core that was easily overwhelmed when asked to process a couple of reverb sends on a project with 12-20 audio tracks, or to put a compressor on the master bus. The i7 doesn't even break a sweat for the same tasks...I have yet to see it over 3-4% CPU usage for my current projects. I like the idea of future-proofing, and having headroom if I want to get crazy and use a ton of VST/VSTi. In my opinion, it's better to have too much headroom rather than not enough! If your budget will allow it, I say go for the hot rod :)

The SSD system drive is really nice to have as well. Kind of like the hot-rod i7 processor, it's not necessary but really nice to have. I can't believe how it speeds up routine things like rebooting, loading/closing programs, etc.
 
I was referencing This Article when I said that SSDs would reduce latency.

Now, the number 1 cause (in my opinion) of latency will always be an old/bad driver or driver using the wrong buffer setting.

DM is correct that a faster hard drive (or SSD) is not the end all, cure all for every problem in computer recording. I was not making the case for SSDs, only pointing out that he could keep the smaller one. :D
 
BroKen_H said:
DM is correct that a faster hard drive (or SSD) is not the end all, cure all for every problem in computer recording. I was not making the case for SSDs, only pointing out that he could keep the smaller one. :D
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Yes, I was just trying to avoid people reading these threads and thinking, "Oh crap, I don't have an SSD, I can't record without one" kind of thinking.
 
Progress is progress. You can record on an Amiga if you can find one. Been there, done that, lost the T-shirt (maybe out grew it). :D
 
Ok, the more research I do, the more I feel I'm throwing money into things I won't take full advantage of for my given situation. Also, the bargain shopper in me is rearing it's ugly head and is wanting to save more. On the other hand, I'm taking a look at mac mini's knowing good and well it would be more expensive than what I'm putting together, but they sure are pretty.

In any event, I've scaled back a few things and I now have the build under $800. This is bare minimum, so I may still increase a few things. Just to reiterate, I will mostly be recording 1-4 tracks at a time, line level and real mic'd instruments. I'd like the capability to handle VST drums and guitar as well as not be limited by use of vst plug in effects (eq, comp, reverbs, delays, etc).

CPU Intel Core i5-4670 3.4GHz Quad-Core $214.98
Motherboard Asus B85M-G Micro ATX LGA1150 $83.99
Memory Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1600 $149.99
Storage Crucial MX100 128GB 2.5" SSD $73.99
Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM $53.98
Case Silverstone PS07B MicroATX Mini Tower $69.99
Power Supply Corsair 430W ATX12V $29.99
Optical Drive LG GH24NS95 DVD/CD Writer $20.98
Operating System Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) $89.98

-I dropped to the i5 thinking that would be enough for what I'm doing.

-I dropped the $61 Noctua cooler since I won't be overclocking. Main reason I put in is because I thought it would be much quiter than the stock fan. But my current build has the stock cooler and no sound dampening and I can't say noise has ever been an issue. Just a thought.

-Changed the storage drive to the Barracuda a it was less expensive. This was a tough call becuase when I made my first build I always read that WD was the best, and it has been running strong now for 10+ years. But from the reviews I've read, they both seem to have equal proponents and detractors.

-Changed the optical drive to LG becuase every Lite-On I get fails within a couple years.

-The PSU is the same. This unit is not modular. I personally won't be doing the build, having it done at a local shop instead, so I'm undecided if I should splurge for a modular. Since the case is micro ATX, it will be cramped, but in theory, since I am going to get a USB interface, I shouldn't need to crack this thing open all the time to mess with shuffling around PCI soundcards like I've done with my Delta's.

Hope to hear your thoughts.
 
I think you should beef up your power supply (PS) to above 600 (usually 650 and above). Looking at future proofing, knowing USB get's its power from the board, fans, CPU, etc. I nice PS at build time would serve you well.

---------- Update ----------

BroKen_H said:
Progress is progress. You can record on an Amiga if you can find one. Been there, done that, lost the T-shirt (maybe out grew it). :D
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:confused:
 
Wow, such great information here, and I agree with a lot of it, but I DEFINITELY agree with two major points:

A: DEFINITELY upgrade the power supply. For a PC running a DAW (especially if yer using PCI/PCIe cards and/or USB 2/3.0 or Firewire), you should have at LEAST 1000W of power. 600W just isn't gonna cut it. My current recording PC has 1300 watts of power. Also, keep in mind, higher-wattage PSUs are usually also better quality and have cleaner circuitry and therefore provide much cleaner power. The best chain is to have some kind of decent power conditioner (ART actually makes some really great ones) providing the power to the PSU on yer tower; that way you can guarantee the power is 100% clean & stable.

2: I would also DEFINITELY grab an SSD, if not two; use one to run your system off of, and another to track audio onto. Then once the audio is tracked, you can back it up to a regular spinning drive (at LEAST 7200 RPM; a 12ms access time is the slowest you can use to accurately record/playback audio). The benefits of SSDs are numerous, but the main ones are access speed (my PC boots from a cold start to the Windows login screen in 9 seconds) and longevity: there are no moving parts on an SSD, so it lasts a LOT longer than a spinning drive; has a far better error rate; and creates almost ZERO heat.

d: speaking of heat, i'd make sure you have a proper cooling system for both the air and the CPU set up. I *highly* recommend getting a liquid-cooling system for the CPU; Corsair makes a few very reasonably-priced (but extremely effective) models. The installation can be a bitch, but hey, you only have to do it once. Also be sure to set up the system fans such that you create a hot/cold suction of sorts: you'll need at least two fans; set up one near the bottom of the tower, typically in front, so it sucks in cool air, and then set another fan up at the top & back part of the tower so it blows out hot air. That in tandem with a liquid-cooled CPU will keep yer PC running smoothly & cool for a long time. I over clock my CPU quite a bit, and it's never gotten hotter than 60C.
 
You don't need a kilowatt of power for an audio rig. You're better going with a high quality, lower power psu than going for a high power lower range product - something like a SeaSonic Gold range will give a very stable supply.

I'd get a third party cooler. The stock cooler will likely do the job (unless you're going to do lengthy, intensive processing), but it will be noisier than a bigger cooler with copper heat pipes. You don't need liquid cooling unless you're overclocking, and I've read liquid cooling systems are noisy. I can recommend the Scythe Mugen 3 (maybe discontinued by now), which is silent.
 
jonny deep said:
You don't need a kilowatt of power for an audio rig. You're better going with a high quality, lower power psu than going for a high power lower range product - something like a SeaSonic Gold range will give a very stable supply.

I'd get a third party cooler. The stock cooler will likely do the job (unless you're going to do lengthy, intensive processing), but it will be noisier than a bigger cooler with copper heat pipes. You don't need liquid cooling unless you're overclocking, and I've read liquid cooling systems are noisy. I can recommend the Scythe Mugen 3 (maybe discontinued by now), which is silent.
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Also, I'd definitely go for a modular power supply - it makes the build easier and keeps the insides tidier, so easier to keep dust free, plus it's easier come upgrade time.
 
Normally, high power power supplies are purchased to keep up with high power GPUs. When buying a system with the CPUs OP is talking about, graphics are handled by central. If you have a CPU that needs 55W and two graphics cards that pull 200W each, you need a pretty big PS, but if your CPU is also your GPU and only pulls 55W (as does the 4470) you will not need much over 400W.

BTW, the comment about progress (and the off-the-wall Amiga reference) was referring to SSD technology. Bubble memory (memory that can store it's content without power(non-volatile)) has been around since Bobeck started getting his work noticed in the 70s (he started in the 60s). Now that type of tech has become commercially available (SSDs are NOT bubble memory, but non-volatile). Multi-track (4 whole tracks of recording) sound recording for computers started with Amiga, (Paula to be precise) (also 80s). To be honest, the 80s were the beginning of the digital revolution. 1982 marked the beginning of the CD standard we have now (79 was the prototype) and the first hard disk recording system (Synclavier).

Anybody love computer history? :D
 
Yup yup, jonny deep has it right: a cleaner, better-quality PSU is just as important as having enough wattage; in my case, I couldn't find a quality PSU that was under 1200W, so jonny, if you would be so kind as to let me know where you got the SeaSonic PSU, I'd be forever in yer debt. Also, the only noise created by a liquid cooling system is from the the radiator fan (yes, a liquid CPU cooler works just like a car's radiator), and most liquid cooling systems I've come across do not come with the fan so you can purchase any fan you want, like a one of those whisper-quiet models, which is what I did.

Lastly, jonny also makes an excellent point in recommending a modular PSU; that's the ONLY kind I use when building audio PCs. If you can find one that has detachable power lines, even better, as having a bunch of unused power lines sitting around in your tower/case will only increase the temperature in the case. That won't be an issue if you have yer system fans properly setup as I described earlier in this thread, but it's always better to keep any heat-causing situations to a minimum.
 
Johnny Don't! said:
Yup yup, jonny deep has it right: a cleaner, better-quality PSU is just as important as having enough wattage; in my case, I couldn't find a quality PSU that was under 1200W, so jonny, if you would be so kind as to let me know where you got the SeaSonic PSU, I'd be forever in yer debt. Also, the only noise created by a liquid cooling system is from the the radiator fan (yes, a liquid CPU cooler works just like a car's radiator), and most liquid cooling systems I've come across do not come with the fan so you can purchase any fan you want, like a one of those whisper-quiet models, which is what I did.

Lastly, jonny also makes an excellent point in recommending a modular PSU; that's the ONLY kind I use when building audio PCs. If you can find one that has detachable power lines, even better, as having a bunch of unused power lines sitting around in your tower/case will only increase the temperature in the case. That won't be an issue if you have yer system fans properly setup as I described earlier in this thread, but it's always better to keep any heat-causing situations to a minimum.
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I thought modular meant it has separate, detachable power cables.

I bought my SeaSonic from Amazon. I did a lot of research on building a quiet PC and read reviews of the SeaSonic (especially on Tom's Hardware) that suggested it is completely silent without the fan (when only drawing low power) and unnoticeable when the power ups and the fan starts spinning. The Tom's Hardware review also confirmed they give rock solid stable power throughout their tests.
 
I got my EVGA 500W PSU off of NewEgg. It's totally quiet and more than enough to power a Haswell i7.

Also when choosing your cooling and chassis, remember that bigger fans move the same amount of air at slower RPMs than smaller fans. Lower RPM = lower noise. See if you can find a chassis that accomodates a couple of 120mm fans, and search around for fans that are noted as being quiet.

Liquid CPU cooling isn't a bad idea, but if your CPU has enough headroom that you don't stress it very hard, it won't generate all that much heat. That means that a basic CPU heat sink fan won't rev up to very high RPM under normal load, and thus won't generate much noise.
 
Crap: I meant to write "...can find one that has ENTIRELY detachable power cables..." Some "modular" PSUs come with only *some* detachable cables.

Thanks for the info, jonny! Much appreesh.
 
Glad to see more feedback here. I'm starting to feel more comfortable with build, but still feel overwhelmed with all my other choices, ie new interface, new DAW program, among other new software choices. In case I didn't mention, this PC will be used for more than just music, including internet, but music will be the primary use.

Went by Microcenter the other night and had a look at some off the shelf PC's, as well as the Mac Mini, which does look enticing. I've been rocking PC and windows since the late 90's, so I'm kinda wanting to see what the other side offers. I actually had a Mac in the 90's, a Performa I believe, and I hated it, lol. But things are quite different now. Furthermore, just found out my job offers employee discounts on new Dell and HP computers. No matter which way I go, I may wait until late November and see if I can get any Cyber Monday deals.

If I go with the build, I'll up the PSU, and probably go back to the Noctua cooler. I may also change the mobo to an H87 over the B85, just because it seems more common on other peoples builds. I still like the idea of the micro atx case, just for the slightly smaller footprint.
 
Sounds like a good plan.

Just FYI, anytime you are tracking audio, you *MUST* disable any wireless adapter in yer system; otherwise it will continually cause spikes in the CPU which will definitely affect your recording.
 
Sounds like a good plan I just want to put in my 2 cents (or less) worth.

1) You don't need 1k psu. Do get a quality unit that is modular. I like the Cooler Masters and have had good luck with them.
2) I also love my Cooler Master - HAF 912. Lots of room and lots of space for fans. IT also has very good cable management helping you to get a clean build.
3) I used WD for years but have switched to Seagate. I found them to be much faster and have had no problems with them. I would get a 2 - 3 gig given today's prices. A 3gig is $105 at Tigerdirect
 
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