Gradual audio lag, Multimix 8 USB. I don't want to beg, but... I need help. Badly.

T

Triazic

New member
Hi, I have a great big question, so I'll break it up into blocks to avoid a wall of text.

THE GOAL: To record drum cover videos to be uploaded to youtube.

THE PROBLEM: When recording into my computer, I get a gradual audio lag that builds up after maybe 3-3.5 minutes of recording. The problem with this is that when laying down the MP3 backing track, my drums will lag behind towards the end of the song despite me playing in time whilst recording.

How I tested this: I layed down the MP3 of a particular song in Track 1 of my music software. I then recorded said MP3 through my ipod, connected to my mixer, and then connected to the computer (have tried USB via mixer, or main mix out then using converters into mic or line in input on the soundcard) into Track 2, and lined up the start of this recording perfectly with the MP3 on Track 1. The recorded track, coming through the mixer, drops behind the MP3 about 3 minutes in by about half a beat, enough to make anyone's ears bleed. (note: this is not a sudden lag, but gradual; at 3 minutes it is painfully noticeable, though).

What I could do, but what I will not do:
a) Dilate the timing of my recordings such that they align with the MP3 track. I could do this, but I'm seeing that as a bandaid solution, and that in itself causes some issues; also, if I were to record, say, a 'how-to' or tut vid on drums without a known backing track, it would be near impossible to synch my stand-alone audio correctly with the independent video footage.

b) Install a PCI soundcard; the computer is not owned by me, and to open up the case would void the warranty.

c) Purchase another mixer, or excessively expensive equipment (over $200 AUD probably, I'd just dilate the timing before forking out that kind of money).

What I have tried, and thus what you cannot suggest :D

a) To try switching between using the 'line in' or 'microphone' jacks on my soundcard or using the USB capabilities of the mixer; I have tried all possible options of this sort, and all have had the lag to minimally varying degrees (all pretty bad).

b) Upgrading the REALTEK drivers (an error in installation and had to use a recovery point to fix), I have also tried ASIO drivers with both high, and low buffer rates; hardly any difference.

c) Altering sample rates (I have tried 44.1, 48, 96, no difference whatsoever).

THE EQUIPMENT:
1. A good, new computer (running Windows 7); has a lot of grunt, 4gb ram, quad processor ---> I could not see the computer or CPU itself being the cause of the problem, and it is out of the question to upgrade it anyway.

2. Alesis Multimix 8 USB (1.1, not 2.0). I know the mixer here is a likely cause of the problem; as 1.1 is probably struggling to keep up with 3-4 mins of data.

3. STOCK SOUND CARD (Realtek HD Audio)

4. Acoustica Mixcraft 5, and Ableton Live 8 (have used both with all types of inputs, ie line in, USB...). Both have equal lag.

3. Drum mics etc, not really important for this.

WHAT I AM THINKING OF AS A SOLUTION:

It seems to me that there are two potential weak links in the chain; when using the USB functionality of the Alesis Multimix; the mixer is the problem, as the mixer acts as the sound card (feel free to correct me on this if I'm wrong, this stuff is really confusing...). When using "main mix out" on the mixer, and plugging into the sound card; the sound card is at fault.

I'm not going to upgrade to a USB 2.0 mixer, because they are $800+ AUD... which is unthinkable.

Therefore, I have to do something with the sound card.

This is where some help would be nice :D

I've seen a youtube drum cover guy, who's got good quality explain his setup (here: YouTube - ‪How I Record My Drum Set‬‏), and he uses an analogue mixer and runs it via RCA output (my mixer has this, also) into a Behringer U-Control UCA 202 (Allans Music + Billy Hyde - Shop : Behringer - USB Audio Interface - U-Control UCA202 ) and then into a freakin' laptop! :eek: and then into Mixcraft 5 (same as what I have).

I'm wondering if this would also work for me too, as the U-CONTROL is well within my price range. I'm wondering though, why would this option be any better than using the Alesis Multimix 8's USB functionality, since both the Multimix and the U-CONTROL are both 1.1 and not 2.0 USB connections? :confused:

Is the sound card/interface built into the multimix really bad or something?

If your advice is against/an alternative to the U-CONTROL, keep in mind my low price-range, and also keep in mind that I already have a mixer, and have absolutely no need for an audio interface/sound card that has preamps, EQ, XLR slots, 16 million inputs etc. All I need is ONE input (I'll just plug my mixer in), and maybe a slot for headphones/output to speakers (even that is unnecessary though, to give you an idea of how little I actually need).

Thanks heaps in advance, sorry if some of the information I have provided is irrelevant, but I'm trying to give the deepest possible analysis of my situation possible so that you could provide sound advice.

Cheers all,
Oli. :D
 
Thousands of people do daily what you are trying to do. I think the problem is in your process, not in the gear.

Your mixer is indeed a sound card (audio interface, actually). Are your headphones plugged into the mixer/interface or the stock sound card? They should be connected to the mixer.
 
Neither, it has no impact whatsoever on the recording process.

I just do this:
1) Play my iPod with my isolation headphones (not in mixer or anything else, just the iPod)
2) Drum along to said song whilst recording
3) Line up the recorded drums in the software with the MP3 on a separate track
4)... profit?

It's really quite simple, and I think you have misinterpreted my problem (not trying to sound mean here lol). Playback lag (or latency, for that matter) is not the issue at all here. The problem is that the recording, once recorded and in the music software, has already lagged (gradually slowed down and lost time) somewhere between mixer and computer and thus what I line up at the start of the MP3, is not lined up by the end (is behind). Hope this makes sense.

If I did have my headphones plugged into the mixer, I would struggle to hear the song because there would be 2 identical drum tracks overpowering everything else, but that's an irrelevant matter.
 
Your problem is still a variation on what I was getting at. The iPod digital-to-analog converter is running on its own clock and the mixer/interface (or sound card, whichever you use) analog-to-digital converter is running on another clock. They will drift.

Without buying anything you could try this: Put your headphones into the Alesis' headphone output and set the recording software to play the backing track through it. Press the button on the Alesis that says "2 TK TO CTRL ROOM". Record your drums as before, with the computer as the source instead of the iPod. You wouldn't have your drums in your headphones, which is okay because that's how you had it with the iPod, right?
 
Dude that's fantastic, I think I love you lol... I'll try it tomorrow!

But as to the actual specifics of it, is it basically the fact that I'm converting the signal twice that it drifts (ie dig-analog-dig), or...? Like I don't really understand the clock thing?

If you have better things to do then explain that, don't worry; just curious is all. I'll post back here tomorrow to let you know if it worked.

Hmm... I sometimes do backup vox as well whilst playing drums, and synthesiser so I wouldn't be able to hear those with this setup will I... (basically before I implanted a really loud click track into the MP3 on my ipod to counteract the excessive drums thing, whilst still hearing my voice and synth), but that's alright, I'll work that out later on. Also for curiosity, what does the "2 TK TO CTRL ROOM" actually do?

Later.
 
Imagine that you want to record a track on top of a backing track with a cassette recorder. You use one cassette deck to play back the backing track while you are recording, but you use a different cassette deck to play back the backing track when mixing. No matter how well you calibrate them, those cassette decks almost certainly will play back at slightly different speeds, so your recordings won't line up. It's the same way with the iPod playing it back versus your computer playing it back.

Each hardware device (iPod, sound card, audio interface, etc.) plays audio at a speed related to a clock circuit built into the device. Those are not going to be identical, so there will be some slight variation in playback time when playing back the same song through your audio interface versus your iPod. This is what you are seeing.
 
Like dgatwood says, the clocks just control playback speed. The one you are playing to, in you iPod, is a bit slower than the one in your computer. You just need to use one device with one clock for listening and recording.

"2 TK TO CTRL ROOM" means "2-track to control room". Control room means your monitor speakers or headphones connected to the mixer. The button replaces the main mix with the 2-track input in the control room/phones output. That lets you hear the playback from the recording software. Unfortunately the mixer isn't designed with layering tracks in mind so there's no provision for mixing the playback with the live inputs in your headphones, but you could cheat the system by looping the main mix back into the 2-track input. The analog 2-track input (RCA connectors on the mixer) gets mixed with the USB return from the computer, which is also considered 2-track input. Then you could track vocals etc., in theory. Really, you need an interface with better monitoring function.
 
Wow OK my mind is blown lol, that's pretty deep... :D

I think I'll just have to experiment with this a bit, so hang on... for the 2 TK, will I need RCA cables? If so I'll need to get some.

Basically is this what you're envisioning (forget the vox part for now, I'll work on that further down the road):

............................................ Heaphones via headphone jack on mixer will be playing said MP3, I play along.
.........................................................................^
..........................................................................l
Computer software (playing MP3)---via USB----> Back of mixer. (have to set the mixer as the output device on the computer yeah?)...

and then my drums ---XLR/1/4"---> Mixer, set mixer to 2 TK to control room----(Via RCA? Not sure sure about this part..., would main mix out still work? or would that be sending the song back to the software and causing massive problems, feedback etc?)----> Realtek sound card---> back to software.

If that's correct, the thing is that my soundcard has no RCA inputs... I'll have to use converters or something.

(Edit):Already tested, ignore this post primarily.
 
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OK, I've just tested it, and the setup that you suggested worked perfectly (but wait...); the sound was playing back through my headphones, and I could actually mix my drums to my headphones as well (there's a button for it, so no worries with vox or synth, that's all good). This was with USB-> Mixer->line in on Realtek sound card.

But the lag was exactly the same, if not slightly worse; seems to me that the realtek sound card cannot keep up (as that was what my mixer was sending my recorded drums too. I'm absolutely confident I was not playing out of time with what I was hearing in my headphones; very simple drum pattern towards the end.

Is the solution to this to replace the soundcard with another interface, ie the U-CONTROL that I mentioned in my first post? (remember that using the Multimix's built-in interface via USB is not an option because that lags too, and to replace the soundcard will be a cheaper option.)
 
Now I'm just so fucking confused.... :'(

When I recorded my drums I also recorded with a video camera, just to test some things out, well... when the same lag problem occurred, I figured I'd test something.

1) I exported my recorded drums as an MP3 file (regardless of if they were 'lagging' or not)
2) Put down the video in Sony Vegas 8 (video software) in one video track, and my recorded drums in another.
3) Once aligned at the start, my recorded drums via the Realtek sound card and my recorded drums via the video camera were in perfect synch for the entirety of my playing.

! This would indicate that there is no lag happening during the recording process; my recorded drum audio and the 'real' audio captured by my camera were perfectly aligned, ie nothing bad happens between when I hit the drum, and when it is recorded. !

4) However, when aligning the MP3 of the song (not the recording) in a third track in Sony Vegas (note: exactly the same MP3 file that my music software was sending to my headphones and that I played along too), the gradual lag effect occured.

! Would this indicate that there was a gradual slowdown of playback rate of the MP3 when sending audio to my mixer? !

What would cause that? I mean, my Realtek sound card was not involved in that part of the process was it? I just altered my computer's sound playback device from my computer speakers (plugged in via comp's sound card at the back) to the Alesis Multimix 8 via USB, thus making the Multimix the interface/sound card during the playback.

Alteratively, the playback rate of the MP3 could be gradually speeding up on my computer, but that's ridiculous, no?

So fucking confused...

Oh yeah sorry, another thing; if there was lag during the playback stage this would indicate that the Alesis's capabilities to act as an audio interface via USB is shit BUT... the gradual lag also occurred when not using the Alesis as an interface at all (ipod--> Alesis--> Main Mix Out---> Realtek Sound card (interface in this scenario).) [but I think that can be explained by the differing clocks...]

Moral of the story is, please help me out here... I'd like to think of myself as pretty adept at these sort of things, but this is doing my head in.
 
I have to give you credit for providing a lot of information and breaking it up into paragraphs. If you hadn't I would probably have just skipped reading the post.

The bit of info that stands out at the moment is this:

Triazic said:
This was with USB-> Mixer->line in on Realtek sound card.
Click to expand...

In that case you are listening through the DAC (digital to analog converter) on the Alesis and recording through the ADC of the Realtek, so the potential for drift is still present. Try the same thing but record from the Alesis' USB connection rather than from the Realtek's input. Until you are listening and recording through the converters on single device you haven't eliminated that as a possible source of the drift.
 
Ah yeah, can't believe I didn't think of that however the lag is still there unfortunately, although not as pronounced as before (as converters were no longer being used). I think this can be largely attributed now to the Alesis itself-there are no other potential sources of lag in this case, right? (I don't really blame it, doing 2 tasks at once)

I was thinking I might do another test now that I understand this stuff pretty well, and that would be to run Realtek-> Mixer->Realtek, ie run what I'd normally use as my speakers into the mixer (would I need to plug into the RCA "2 track in section"?, I can't see any alternative), and then main mix out-> back into Realtek via line in.

However I do not have the cords for this at the moment, and in the mean time I have found a substantially better 'band-aid' solution than warping the timing of my recordings to fit the song and that is to make everything lag equally.

My new setup is to:
1) Play drums along to the song either through ipod alone or through mixer+ipod via splitter (if I need backup vox and/or synth)
2) Record the song through the ipod->mixer->realtek

(ie both the song, and recording have been recorded according to the ipod's clock)

In this way, by recording everything through the same pattern, I eliminate the source of drifting (converters); albeit at a slight loss of MP3 sound quality because I record the MP3 via iPod and mixer.

(I have already tested this, and it worked flawlessly).

Thanks for your help, my last question would be the one above ^^^ about needing to use RCA.

Thanks so much,
Oli.

Oh yeah side note; With this setup I will also have no problems with doing 'stand-alone' videos and recordings (ie drum tuts) and worrying about video desynching with audio, because there is no lag between Mixer->Realtek line in).
 
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