Dum Dum Question about Clipping in Cubase

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Hey! When using Cubase there are occasionally instances where the audio wave graphic slightly exceeds the given parameters. However, in playing back the wave never surpasses -3 db. The very fact that it seems to "stop" suddenly like this suggests that perhaps there is clipping, only I seldom hear it(if at all), and nothing is technically hitting 0db, which leaves me rather confused. I know this is a digital recording 101 question for most of you, but I would like to know once and for all what is happening here.

Also, in instances where there does appear to be slight clipping, but no audible artifacts are discernible, is there any reason I should worry about it? Overall, I seldom clip.

Thank you so much for any time and patience! Hope you are having a good day.
 
Help Help said:
Hey! When using Cubase there are occasionally instances where the audio wave graphic slightly exceeds the given parameters. However, in playing back the wave never surpasses -3 db. The very fact that it seems to "stop" suddenly like this suggests that perhaps there is clipping, only I seldom hear it(if at all), and nothing is technically hitting 0db, which leaves me rather confused. I know this is a digital recording 101 question for most of you, but I would like to know once and for all what is happening here.

Also, in instances where there does appear to be slight clipping, but no audible artifacts are discernible, is there any reason I should worry about it? Overall, I seldom clip.

Thank you so much for any time and patience! Hope you are having a good day.
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Hi.
I can't say for certain if your audio is clipped or not from the description but here are two decent rules to follow.
1: Don't go anywhere near clipping. There's nothing to gain from that if your noise levels are normal - Always leave about 10db at the top to guarantee safety.
2: Trust the meter numbers, not the graphics. The graphics can be zoomed and misleading. The meters can't.

I know it's not a direct answer but hopefully it's helpful.
 
Meters on computers and even mechanical meter can give incomplete indications. I would inspect the area of the -3 dB recording in a zoomed view to see if there is any flat top wave forms which is clipping.
Some analog to digital converters try to soft clip or limit the waveform so that a true clip is not had or even truncation. See if it does it with the settings another 4 dB down. There is always the high level idea but that comes from old equipment and having to maximize signal to noise ratio which in digital equipment does not have to be considered so why use old analog rules on digital equipment. On new rule that a lot of people do not heed or understand is that when waveforms get to 0dB that there is no numbers above that to record the information- you are all FFFFFF'd up.
 
Minor clipping isn't necessarily all that audible.

More importantly, why are you allowing your signal to get anywhere near clipping? Turn down your preamps 6-12dB. Each signal should average around -18dBFS. Set percussive sources so they never peak past -6dB or so. With clipping, seldom is way too often.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Minor clipping isn't necessarily all that audible.

More importantly, why are you allowing your signal to get anywhere near clipping? Turn down your preamps 6-12dB. Each signal should average around -18dBFS. Set percussive sources so they never peak past -6dB or so. With clipping, seldom is way too often.
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Hey guys! Thanks for all your responses. I am mainly an analog guy but I use digital for some stuff. I don't mean to allow my signal to get near clipping. It happens in recording things with a lot of dynamic range, and because the little dials on the TASCAM US-1800 can be extremely sensitive(the slightest movement can be huge, which can catch me off guard), and, perhaps most importantly, I'm not the most familiar around digital recording(like that wasn't obvious ha). As for things that have already been recorded, I suppose if it isn't audible it's not anything to be too worried over? I'll be more careful from now on.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Think of -18dBFS in digital as comparable to 0dBVU in analog.
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Okay thanks! But just to be clear, in reality so long as nothing touches 0, nothing is clipping right? So aim for -18 for safety reasons, but you really have until 0, right? Thank you for your help!

Additional really, really stupid question: If I have 20 tracks let's say, and all are muted except for one, it is the same as if I only had that one right? I have this absurd illogical paranoia sometimes that if I don't delete unused tracks they still affect the in play tracks somehow(though this is surely impossible). I know this is absurd, but just to quiet the illogical side of my anxious brain could someone just confirm this? Ha. Sorry.

Thanks friends.
 
In reality, you should not be near there. The idea is not to get close to 0dBFS.

That being said, you can actually go past that within Cubase on tracks without audible clipping. The issue may then be clipping of plugins that are designed to run at the equivalent of line level (-18dBFS).

Just do not pass 0 dBFS at the master output bus EVER!
 
Help Help said:
Okay thanks! But just to be clear, in reality so long as nothing touches 0, nothing is clipping right? So aim for -18 for safety reasons, but you really have until 0, right? Thank you for your help!

Additional really, really stupid question: If I have 20 tracks let's say, and all are muted except for one, it is the same as if I only had that one right? I have this absurd illogical paranoia sometimes that if I don't delete unused tracks they still affect the in play tracks somehow(though this is surely impossible). I know this is absurd, but just to quiet the illogical side of my anxious brain could someone just confirm this? Ha. Sorry.

Thanks friends.
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Well yeah, technically what you're saying is true but it makes so much sense to steer clear.
There's nothing to gain from riding the levels high in digital, but there's everything to lose.

heh. Yeah, muted tracks don't contribute. To be super picky, make sure those muted tracks aren't going to any pre-fader sends.
I know muted tracks can still pipe out to buses in ProTools.
Other than that, you're good.
 
The answer to your initial question probably has to do with the zoom control. There are three zoom controls in cubase. Horizontal, vertical and waveform. If you accidentally zoomed in on the waveform, it will be taller than the display. If you only hit -3dbfs, you are not clipping. The zoom is just making it look like you have.

As far as levels go. The meat of the signal needs to be around -18dbfs, the transients can fall where ever they do. Percussive instruments will have transients that are much higher than smoother instruments.

For example, violin recorded at proper levels will probably have a peak level somewhere around -15dbfs or so. A piano recorded at proper levels will have peaks closer to -10dbfs. Drums even higher.
 
Farview said:
The answer to your initial question probably has to do with the zoom control. There are three zoom controls in cubase. Horizontal, vertical and waveform. If you accidentally zoomed in on the waveform, it will be taller than the display. If you only hit -3dbfs, you are not clipping. The zoom is just making it look like you have.

As far as levels go. The meat of the signal needs to be around -18dbfs, the transients can fall where ever they do. Percussive instruments will have transients that are much higher than smoother instruments.

For example, violin recorded at proper levels will probably have a peak level somewhere around -15dbfs or so. A piano recorded at proper levels will have peaks closer to -10dbfs. Drums even higher.
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Hmm.. I'm not sure if it does have to do with zoom control, as I am quite familiar with the use of that. When I zoom in to the limit it becomes more evident when I am clipping, as I can see the waveforms hitting the roof and becoming unnatural. What confuses me is that the individual track meters, so long as they are centered, stop at -3.0 somehow. I think I have been clipping in these instances, but it's nothing I can't fix. If in not knowing better, I recorded things where the meat of the signal is at -4 or whatever, and there is no clipping, no harm done right? I'll record lower from now on.
 
The waveform that you see in the Project Window has nothing to do with audio levels. It is there for editing purposes only. You can change the zoom of that to your needs. No affect on gain.

What you need to look out for is inter sample peaking that the level meters on each track in Cubase might not be showing you. You would not have to even bother if you have your gain staging and recording levels right to begin with.

Seems you may already have meters peaking in a project that you are concerned about. Just pull down the track levels and it should be good or better for mixing them. Just don't clip that master out bus ever.

Being a past user of the 1800 for a few years, I will say that for almost everything I tracked with it, the gain knobs were almost always at the far left when recording drums. Only things like HH and Ride mics got a bit of gain from the 1800 preamps. There is no need to boost them. They are not a analog style preamp that will give you anything better by turning them up. Especially not with a signal that is super loud to begin with.

For guitars this was a bit different. Still, not looking to get peak levels on the 1800. Just looking at input level to recording track in DAW of around -18dBFS.
 
Help Help said:
Okay thanks! But just to be clear, in reality so long as nothing touches 0, nothing is clipping right? So aim for -18 for safety reasons, but you really have until 0, right? Thank you for your help!
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The digital side of things will be fine up to 0dBFS, but the analog side will not be in the optimum range if you're pushing 0dBFS.
 
Farview said:
So long as they are centered? What does that mean?
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If they are panned to the left or right, they peak higher than -3.

The digital side of things will be fine up to 0dBFS, but the analog side will not be in the optimum range if you're pushing 0dBFS.
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I'm not sure what you mean by this(though I probably should). If things are okay on the digital side, can't the volume just be turned down? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "analog side" in this instance. For mixing somehow?
 
Help Help said:
I'm not sure what you mean by this(though I probably should). If things are okay on the digital side, can't the volume just be turned down? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "analog side" in this instance. For mixing somehow?
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The mic preamps and all the circuitry leading up to the converters is analog. If 0dbVU, nominal line level, is equal to -18dbfs, that means that in order to get a signal level in cubase of 0dbfs, you would need to be pushing the analog circuitry to +18dbVU. In other words, you are running your preamps too hot, which makes them sound worse than they need to. You are not running them in the range that has the best signal to noise ratio or the best distortion specs.

That's the thing that people have a hard time getting their head around. On the digital side of things, as long as you don't clip, you are good. But on the analog side of things, you need to keep the signal around line level in order to get the best performance out of it. People forget that the mic preamp is analog, along with the entire signal path leading up to the actual converters. (I mean the chip that is doing the converting, not just the converter box. That will obviously have an analog signal path up to the point of conversion)
 
Farview said:
The mic preamps and all the circuitry leading up to the converters is analog. If 0dbVU, nominal line level, is equal to -18dbfs, that means that in order to get a signal level in cubase of 0dbfs, you would need to be pushing the analog circuitry to +18dbVU. In other words, you are running your preamps too hot, which makes them sound worse than they need to. You are not running them in the range that has the best signal to noise ratio or the best distortion specs.

That's the thing that people have a hard time getting their head around. On the digital side of things, as long as you don't clip, you are good. But on the analog side of things, you need to keep the signal around line level in order to get the best performance out of it. People forget that the mic preamp is analog, along with the entire signal path leading up to the actual converters. (I mean the chip that is doing the converting, not just the converter box. That will obviously have an analog signal path up to the point of conversion)
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Thanks for your help Farview! I think I'm starting to understand that. Fortunately for me the preamps on the US-1800 are not very audible, if they are at all. Plus, I am using digital recording to overdub cassette 4 track, so the noise floor should be well above any advantages in optimal recording levels. Most of what I have recorded is at optimal levels, if the 0 to 100 meter in cubase is what I read the levels on(100 being 0db I presume). My question on clipping is for the cases where I pushed things too hot. In assuming that "as long as I don't clip I'm good" while recording, I didn't always set the recording levels the way I should have, particularly on drums. But for the most part I think I'm okay. Thanks for a further learning experience!
 
If your version of cubase doesnt have a db scale, the proper record levels will put the meat of the signal about half way up the meter. Drums are a different animal because the decay time is so short. Those should peak at around -6dbfs, which is about 3/4 of the way up the meter.

If you are pushing the levels hard, you are pushing the preamps out of the comfort zone. It may not be obvious on a single track, but it will have a cumulative effect on the mix. It will sound 'pinched' and 'closed' compared to the open sound you will get using proper gain staging.
 
Help Help said:
If they are panned to the left or right, they peak higher .
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Pan law. Sounds like the audio file itself is hitting 0dbfs, and then being attenuated in the center by a -3db pan law. I think Cubase lets you change the pan law if you want, but if this is your only reason to do so, then it's probably not worth the time and effort even to look.

The advice above on levels is pretty good general advice. Better advice is to actually get to know your hardware and run it at the levels where it wants to run. Some preamps actually have better S/N performance at higher gain levels, and some can handle more voltage before distortion than the ADC they feed. I think the pres in my 1641 (earlier version of your 1800) get quieter as gain is raised, but I know that they distort before they hit 0dbfs.

Edit - yeah, no. Just actually tested it and the Tascam is neither quieter nor cleaner at.higher gain levels. Interestingly, it's not a whole lot more distorted at -0.5 than at -18, but at the higher gain the distortion artifacts start to get lost in the noise floor.

My Nady pres into the Fostex d2424lv actually show less noise in the mid and high frequencies, but much more in the low frequencies at higher gain, but I know that those pres don't distort before the recorder.
 
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