Do you really buy that expensive recording software?

[Kelby]

Heinz, you are absolutely correct --- there really can't be any debate that the law prohibits people from pirating this stuff, regardless of whether that law flows from the license agreement or elsewhere.

Maybe somebody who has been more involved in pirating than I have can lend me some insight on an issue I have always found curious. I understand that if a guy has purchased a program and a buddy wants to copy it, the guy who owns it might make a copy to save his buddy some cash (notwithstanding the legal and moral issues it raises). I understand the motivations at work there --- the buddy wants to save some cash, and the owner wants to do a favor for his buddy. But what motivates people to post a cracked copy on the Internet for public distribution to a bunch of people they don't even know? I simply don't understand what makes them think this is a good idea.

Course, I don't understand what motivates a Pakistani tribe to order a teenage girl raped as punishment for her brother's affair with a married woman. Maybe I'm just getting out of sync with the world.

 

[RWhite]

Kelby, I can think of 2 things that motivate someone to post software on the internet -

1) Kids do it for the cheap thrill, or to get upload credit with some of their hacker buddies. I think 90% of all software postings come from this.

2) Sometimes people may do it from a sence of vengance- say they buy the new "Dip Sound 3.0" and it winds up crashing their hard drive 3 times or something. Or they are pissed because it costs too much, so when they find a hacked copy they pass it on.

Either rational is stupid, but I think most postings come from some variation of that logic.

 

[jdechant]

nothing is black and white... there is no cut and dry... the term 'black and white' is a meaningless fucking term... it doesn't exsist...

even a black and white TV isn't black and white...

the mere fact that this thread even exsists and is still alive proves that.

 

[jitteringjim]

jitteringjim this was not specifically directed at you, but just a response to the hilarious cowboy-justice being spouted in this thread.

No offense taken.

I have a little insight into the software "cracking and posting" thing, but I'm not an expert by any means.

There are at least two types of forces @ work with software cracking.

1. The folks who believe all information should be free, and that a price can't be put on 1's and 0's. These folks don't have a problem with the theft of intellectual property.

2. Guys who work at bypassing (cracking) copy protection or other limiting factors such as a "demo" program to restore full function to the program. These guys just do it for the fun and educational value of the experience itself. They post the "work" as kind of a status symbol. Once it gets into the hands of the general web population, that's when it spreads like a virus.
I'm not endorsing crackers or piracy, but I've cracked a few progs myself, through readily available tutorials (only for the experience.) Small things, like bypassing a "nag" box in a shareware program or the like. I'm not a programmer, so it was extremely difficult for me to do something even that elementary. I can only imagine what it must be like to crack a program with serious copy protection involved. These guys always include a little note to "buy the software if you use it." I believe they really mean that, but few people probably do.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

Oh, I've forgotten to mention people who just rip disc images and post them - That's a serious deal. Nothing educational or complex with that. It's just lame. I remember the first posting of Photoshop 7 to the 'Net. Just some guy who ripped a full disc image and posted it along with the serial number. He had the audacity to call it "his" release. The next day it was everywhere, and others had taken their crack at ripping out the data that was deemed "unnecessary" in order to allow for faster download. Totally uncool.

 

[RWhite]

Charger, you're right, I was thinking of Pro Tools Free. It is supposed to be fully functional up to 8 tracks, although I was never able to get it to stop crashing. So in this case the demo acted as a negative ad...

 

[James Argo]

So many threads in this forum... Long thread... I don't even had any clue what to say... but in my country piracy is... what everybody did. American product is too expensive here. I mean way up so high. And not always available as original. There's no software shop in my town... (or should I call it village!) and if there is, they sell 95% piracy soft. Using the internet to buy it online is cool. But still too expensive plus the shiping. Working as an ordinary musician / engineer in my country, get paid only 50 - 100 $ / month (If I get lucky...). After working and saving my money for 8 months, I use SONAR and CoolEdit Pro. Buy it legally through my American friend, because I like to support the creator, so they can support me in the future. I swear, I really apreciate them. Once I use the cracked, it ruins my PC. I must be honest that I still use few cracked simple Dir X plug ins, but that's because I never use them often. once per about 25 projects. I did, occasionally, just for fun additions. If it available in my country, ASAP I'll buy it. But they never comes up.... Don't ask where I am. Somewhere long long away from earth...

 

[Sangram]

Did I buy that really expensive recording software? No. I didn't. I have plenty of Freeware that I use for my work. Like SoundEngine, which is a fully fledged wave editor, a damn good one too if you can understand the dialog boxes and the (very) basic English in the menus. Like ProTools Free, which I've actually never used, 'cause it kept insisting I had used an obscenity while filling out the download form. Like AcidXpress, which impressed me to buy Acid 2.0 last year, in its box with a full CD of loops. And I didn't mind it, 'cause it was about 70 US. And a bunch of multitrackers, which I don't remember offhand, and don't even use anymore.

However, there's another side to it. In our country, finding this kind of software is very very tough. A few pro audio shops stock audio software, and charge the earth for it. Guess how much Acid Pro 3.0 costs: 800 USD!! That's stealing, too. And add to that the fact that Indian citizens can't use their credit cards on the 'net, or have any sort of foreign currency transactions, and you see how we're ripped off. The governemnt taxes and imposes duties to death on software, and we consumers have to bear the brunt of it.

I've used cracks, and IMO they're not worth the CD's they're written on or the bandwidth that was used to download them. In the capital of our country, you will find a market that sells any kind of CD for $30. Games, pro audio, everything. They're guaranteed to crash your computer on a regular basis, one of my friends used cracked versions of Cubase and it kept stuttering at regular intervals. He now uses Acid Xpress. Even the media cracks open after a few uses (it actually splits down the middle). So not a great way to get going too.

It may all be well to make moralisitic judgements on piracy, but even the makers are ripoffs. I have found all the software I need on the 'net. I've not yet moved into the league of using anything beyond my Acid 2.0 and Soundengine. When I become pro, I'll ensure I get pro. But not at exorbitant prices.

BTW did you know an M-audio audiophile costs around here? 350 USD. Or an Audiobuddy? 150 (give or take). Now that's something I would like to download, but can't, can I? This whole music biz in this country sucks big time because musicians are being ripped off by everybody, and then we're expected to lie down and take it and do the good moral thing. We don't, not really, but there are more than one way to skin a cat. It's not just piracy and legal, there's freeware, too.

On the issue of piracy per se, IMHO a reduction in piracy will NOT lead to a reduction in price, or vice versa. However, think about this: If the largest OS manufacturer in the world (names, anyone) were to evolve an absolutely unhackable software, that cost as much as they do now, would penguins take over the world? I think they would. Which is why every OS they release has a loophole. Think about it.

 

[Midlandmorgan]

At the risk of repeating what has already been said, anyone who uses cracked, stolen, or otherwise illegally obtained software, hardware, or music is a thief. Not a shrewd business person, not a student on a budget, but a thief.

Case study: several months ago an acquaintence was raving about some guitar work I did on a CD a few years back. He asked me to come out to his car and hear the specific passage he was wanting to learn, and lo! and behold, he was playing a pirated copy. Now, I get a certain commission for each set of units sold (enough time had passed where it fell to .15 a CD) but it was MY .15....and like the big boys business, one or two .15 issues aren't a problem, but they do add up and they do drive the resulting cost of the product on to the next consumer.

So next time you pay $15.00 for a CD, or $500 for Samplitude, remember that a big part of that cost is the maker trying to recoup its losses from some asshole trying to get something for free.

If you can't afford it, wait until you can....jeesh - this should not even be a topic for discussion.

 

[ColdAsh]

I havent read this entire thread so forgive me if im repeating myself. I think one of the major problems (or excuses) regarding piracy is that all this expensive CD comes on a CD. Therefore many people dont feel that is worth much because one CD doesnt cost $100's of dollars to make. What alot of people fail to realise is the huge amount of money companies have to spend on the research and development of the software. I'd say most of these companies aren't charging these prices to rip us off it's because they have to. If everyone used a cracked copy then there would be no updates, no bug fixes, no improvments. I admit that i have used a cracked version of logic and cubasis, but this was only because i wanted to see which software was best for me. I have since forked out the cash and bought logic gold. And it was worth it.

BTW if ur looking for a fool proof way to get two copies of logic for the price of one do the following.
Buy logic, ring the vendor in a few days and tell them ur having problems getting it to work. Bring the computer in and when they ask where the key is stare blankly at them and say "i thought this cable was the key". When they explain what they key is tell them you didnt get one. They'll ring the distributor and give you another key. Then take it home and discover you did have the original key in the first place.
It worked for me, but only out of stupidity not so i could get a free copy and i dont use the other key, nor to i suggest you do it. They only rarely miss out the key in packageing so if everyone did it it wouldnt work. Just a thought

 

[jdechant]

I havent read this entire thread so forgive me if im repeating myself. I think one of the major problems (or excuses) regarding piracy is that all this expensive CD comes on a CD. Therefore many people dont feel that is worth much because one CD doesnt cost $100's of dollars to make. What alot of people fail to realise is the huge amount of money companies have to spend on the research and development of the software.

that is a good point... but not very valid to use in that analogy... you see record companies also spend ALOT of money developing and recording for audio CD's... but you don't see them charging $100s of dollars on a CD they spent $70,000-$1,000,000 to develop.

I get your point, but I'm just saying if you're gonna make analogies to prove a point, make sure they are sound, cause otherwise, like this one, they don't have much impact.

 

[webstop]

As a result, contract law does not generally provide a remedy unless the manufacturer can establish that the license restrictions were provided to the customer before purchase, as may be the case if the license agreement appears on the outside of the box.

Kelby,
Itsn't this why the agreement you see before installing software often contains the language, stating that if you don't agree with provisions of this agreement, you should return it for full refund?
That way although not having been fully informed at the cash register, the user is still given a chance to return the product and get back his money. When the user continues installation, the circle closes: you've been warned!
Just my undertstanding.

 

[Kelby]

webstop,
That's a good question. The basic answer is that when you buy the software, you enter into a contract, and the manufacturer cannot later condition your rights under that contract on whether you agree to new terms and conditions that were not previously negotiated.

Here's an example to illustrate. Let's suppose you went to your local music stor this afternoon and bought a brand new Les Paul for $1500. That purchase is a contract --- you agreed to pay $1500 and the store agreed to give you a Les Paul. Once you entered into that contract, the music store had an absolute right to $1500 and you had an absolute right to your Les Paul. No one is entitled to come back after the fact and take away or condition your right to the Les Paul. For example, suppose that when you get home, there's a message on your answering machine from Gibson. It says "Mr. Webstop, we understand you have purchased a guitar, and we are calling to let you know that your use of the Les Paul you just bought constitutes an agreement that you will not paint it green, you will not play it on Thursdays, you will not play it on any commercial records or at any concerts, and you will not sell your Les Paul to anyone else ever. If for any reason you do not agree to the terms of this agreement, please bring your Les Paul back to the store for a full refund."

Would those limitations on your answering machine be an enforceable contract? Definitely not. Why not? Because you already entered into a contract at the store in which you bargained for the full and complete ownership rights in a Les Paul. Nobody --- not the music store, not Gibson, not anybody --- has the power to come back afterwards and purport to deny you these rights unless you agree to new terms and conditions. Not any more than if you called the music store after you got home and said "by cashing my $1500 check, you agree to do my laundry every week for the next year, and if you don't agree, bring me back my check and I'll give back the Les Paul."

In simplistic terms, that is why the Courts generally do not enforce the license limitations that appear in software after you purchase it. Once you buy the software at the store, you have the absolute right to use that software subject to the terms and conditions that were negotiated at the store. The manufacturer cannot come to you after you have already purchased that right and say "even though you already purchased and entered into a contract for the full right to use this software, we are nevertheless going to deprive you of that right unless you agree to an entirely new set of terms and conditions that we did not discuss before."

In the end it all comes down to the five-word phrase we all learned as kids: "A deal is a deal." Once you have purchased the software, that's a deal, and the manufacturer can't try to change the terms of the deal after you already made the purchase.

As I have noted above, this does not mean you get to pirate the software if the outside of the box does not prohibit it. Numerous other laws prohibit pirating. But if the manufacturer wants to say that you are contractually prohibited from pirating the software, the manufacturer needs to ensure that a pirating prohibition is actually negotiated at the time you enter into the contract to purchase the software.

Cheers,
Kelby.

 

[cgpratiug]

Guitar Tracks Pro

I'm a guitarist who arranges mostly sacred music for myself and other players. I've found that Cakewalk's Guitar Tracks Pro works very well for my needs and it doesn't cost a bundle either. Maybe I don't know enough about recording software to know the difference, but I don't think I need all the extra MIDI and sampling capabilities of some other software. I hear that Pro Tools is the Cadillac of music recording software, but a little too pricey for my wallet.

 

[ColdAsh]

Sorry, wrong

that is a good point... but not very valid to use in that analogy... you see record companies also spend ALOT of money developing and recording for audio CD's... but you don't see them charging $100s of dollars on a CD they spent $70,000-$1,000,000 to develop.

Do you know the difference in units sold of say, logic platinum versus top selling albums? I donkt know the figures but i could tell you that Logic has not sold in the numbers of a top selling CD and it wouldnt even if it was at a lower price. Read some basic economic books on economies of scale and break even points and tell me about if my analogies prove a point.

 

[zekthedeadcow]

I bought SONAR 2.0 XL for my home studio.

If I make money useing a program I might as well pay for it. If for some stupid reason I was going to keep my music all to myself I probably would just use a freeware program. But I want to make money so I want the best and I don't want anyone to be able to question my legitimacy

 

[ColdAsh]

But I want to make money so I want the best and I don't want anyone to be able to question my legitimacy

Dude if ur in it to make money then your in it for the wrong reasons. Im not saying that you wont but it shouldnt be your reason.

 

[piper spice]

This whole thing really seems so simple to me:

Your software is only one of MANY tools in your studio. Did you/would you steal any of the OTHER gear you use? Did you (or would you) steal your guitar, your mics, pres, mixer, effects, computer, cables, stands, &c? If not, then WHY EVEN ASK about stealing your recording software? If you steal stuff in general, well, i dunno.

If you don't have the money for your dream guitar, you don't see if you can get a friend to go steal one for you. You play a cheaper guitar until you can afford the guitar you really want. Or maybe you build your own dream guitar.

There are some really inexpensive programs out there that will do the job for the home recordist on a budget. Use them until you can afford the expensive program you've decided you MUST have.

Or maybe you write your own software, and then make millions selling it to the rest of us.

Be seeing you,

piper.

 

[ColdAsh]

Jdechant, im waiting for you're reply

 

[webstop]

webstop,
That's a good question. The basic answer is that when you buy the software, you enter into a contract, and the manufacturer cannot later condition your rights under that contract on whether you agree to new terms and conditions that were not previously negotiated.

Here's an example to illustrate. Let's suppose you went to your local music stor this afternoon and bought a brand new Les Paul for $1500. That purchase is a contract --- you agreed to pay $1500 and the store agreed to give you a Les Paul. Once you entered into that contract, the music store had an absolute right to $1500 and you had an absolute right to your Les Paul. No one is entitled to come back after the fact and take away or condition your right to the Les Paul. For example, suppose that when you get home, there's a message on your answering machine from Gibson. It says "Mr. Webstop, we understand you have purchased a guitar, and we are calling to let you know that your use of the Les Paul you just bought constitutes an agreement that you will not paint it green, you will not play it on Thursdays, you will not play it on any commercial records or at any concerts, and you will not sell your Les Paul to anyone else ever. If for any reason you do not agree to the terms of this agreement, please bring your Les Paul back to the store for a full refund."

Would those limitations on your answering machine be an enforceable contract? Definitely not. Why not? Because you already entered into a contract at the store in which you bargained for the full and complete ownership rights in a Les Paul. Nobody --- not the music store, not Gibson, not anybody --- has the power to come back afterwards and purport to deny you these rights unless you agree to new terms and conditions. Not any more than if you called the music store after you got home and said "by cashing my $1500 check, you agree to do my laundry every week for the next year, and if you don't agree, bring me back my check and I'll give back the Les Paul."

In simplistic terms, that is why the Courts generally do not enforce the license limitations that appear in software after you purchase it. Once you buy the software at the store, you have the absolute right to use that software subject to the terms and conditions that were negotiated at the store. The manufacturer cannot come to you after you have already purchased that right and say "even though you already purchased and entered into a contract for the full right to use this software, we are nevertheless going to deprive you of that right unless you agree to an entirely new set of terms and conditions that we did not discuss before."

In the end it all comes down to the five-word phrase we all learned as kids: "A deal is a deal." Once you have purchased the software, that's a deal, and the manufacturer can't try to change the terms of the deal after you already made the purchase.

As I have noted above, this does not mean you get to pirate the software if the outside of the box does not prohibit it. Numerous other laws prohibit pirating. But if the manufacturer wants to say that you are contractually prohibited from pirating the software, the manufacturer needs to ensure that a pirating prohibition is actually negotiated at the time you enter into the contract to purchase the software.

Cheers,
Kelby.

You made it clear. I learned something today. Thank you Kelby.

 

[Busy]

From a Professional Software Engineer...

Let me give you guys my feelings on this subject. Yes, I'm a professional software engineer who makes his living off of developing these types of software. I read through the entire post and have a good idea of what your saying and did (when I was younger in college) rationalize using cracked software etc. I've have since changed as I am now in a position of managing software engineering teams (you know the GROUPS of people that it takes to make software).

1) There is no excuse for using illegal software. You are taking money from a number of people when you do this. Most software/hardware companies aren't the mega Microsoft corporations.

2) If you are using the rationalization that you need to download a crack to demo it, your just fooling yourself. I seriously doubt your going to be a diligent person and not "accidently" use it a few more times. If you really need to demo a piece of software, believe me, there are ways to get a legite copy/demo.

3) If you are a a poor student and need to get your hands on thousands of dollars of software your just not seeing the forest for the trees. I know very few students who don't have access to the software through their classes and there are alternatives. I saw a very good post by someone who mentioned that they are using Guitar Tracks Pro and find it does most of what they are need but didn't need a full blown version of Sonar. Believe me, a first year student isn't going to use the complete power of something like Protools/HD on their home computer. Also, many manufactureres provide academic discounts on software. That's the way we get you hooked on our products so we can eventually make money on you latter on. Software companies do not make money on the academic costs of software.

4) Whoever said this isn't black and white, I'd like to borrow your guitar or synth..and I might not give it back for a while. Is that ok with you? Ah..sorry if this might make it tough for you to eat this week cause you can't make that gig. Tell me how black and white you think it is now.

There are plenty of alternatives and freeware to get your started on a homestudio if you really need to record something. I've developed plenty of freeware for you to download for free so dont' feel you need to go into my wallet. If your a pro-studio and using illegal software, hope you never get a disgrunteled employee..it's very expensive and you can be raided (never mind the legal fees). If you need to record more than 8 tracks (ProTools Free) and can't afford a 300 dollar program, you're in the wrong business and need to talk with your career counseler. Never mind the gear aquisition problem you have for having aquired more than 8 inputs (mics, guitars, etc.) that you can't afford.

BTW, did you know that Warez sites are tracked? If you've downloaded off that site there is a very good chance you are recorded somewhere. The question is if you are doing it enough to be prosicuted. It's called evidence.