When is MP3 loss detectable?
- Thread starter fwrunner2017
- Start date
fwrunner2017
New member
I don't think my ears are as discriminating as they were when I was 30, but they're still good enough that I am becoming dissatisfied with my computer's sound system. Just listening to a CD on the computer (whether ripped to wav or direct from the CD) and then inserting the same CD into my stereo system's CD changer and listening with the same headphones I used on the PC, I can easily discern the difference. The stereo system produces a much "cleaner" sound. I tried playing with the EQ on my PC's system, but it still can't reproduce the clarity that the stereo system can.
I have to check my PC to see if it has a digital output that is compatible with my receiver's digital input. The receiver is very old, so I'm not expecting it to work.
So I may go with a USB DAC, since I only want to listen, and not record. I wouldn't expect to have any speed issue even with USB 2, since I can already run my SDR (software defined radio) on USB 2, and that is a much faster stream than audio.
I have to check my PC to see if it has a digital output that is compatible with my receiver's digital input. The receiver is very old, so I'm not expecting it to work.
So I may go with a USB DAC, since I only want to listen, and not record. I wouldn't expect to have any speed issue even with USB 2, since I can already run my SDR (software defined radio) on USB 2, and that is a much faster stream than audio.
fwrunner2017
New member
Sure is extra $$. I don't think my headphones measure up to something like that. Looking further down the page at Aune on Amazon, I see they have some with tube amps! Any reason to go with a vacuum tube rather than "newer" technology?
fwrunner2017
New member
Thanks. That sounds like the best method to use. I think I am still going to rip to .wav (or flac), and keep those files on my HDD. That way, if I want to change anything or create a mix, I can always get the original rendition. Of course I could just put the CD's into the drive one at a time, but it's so cumbersome, and HDD space is so cheap.320 is pretty acceptable...almost negligent MP3 conversion "hash".
Less than that it gets more and more noticeable..but you have to know what to listen for.
It's not really like a hearing test, where you just focus on your ability to hear the very high end. It's more about the artifacts that occur on transients and points of transitional audio "blending"...kinda like what you see on digital TV when there's a fade to black, you get the artifact halos...etc..
Start with a really low quality MP3 conversion, so that the artifacts are obvious. Then focus on that sound VS the WAV, and then move up in MP3 quality and keep focusing on the artifacts. You just have to "zoom in" on it and be aware of what it is you're listening to.
The flip side...if you can't hear the conversion "hash"...don't worry about it.
fwrunner2017
New member
Here I go again... not reading all of the new posts before posting a reply - so I end up with this: 3+ posts
Anyway; You guys have given me a lot to consider. I'm going to have to do my homework now, so I can make the best choice for my budget. I want to first check my PC to see if it has a digital audio out that my receiver will read. If it does, I'll buy a cable, hook it up and hear what I get. If it doesn't, then I'll have to make my choice between all of the options suggested. I think I'll also need to upgrade my phones as well.
Anyway; You guys have given me a lot to consider. I'm going to have to do my homework now, so I can make the best choice for my budget. I want to first check my PC to see if it has a digital audio out that my receiver will read. If it does, I'll buy a cable, hook it up and hear what I get. If it doesn't, then I'll have to make my choice between all of the options suggested. I think I'll also need to upgrade my phones as well.
garww
New member
It's about sounding good. My working ear is 67, but I can still get a stereo sense. The Aune x1 was my lowball entry to good sounds, and while I was wondering how I would pay for that, they brought out this improved model. I think the extra $50 is worth it - better power supply. If your ears can do stereo headphones, I would consider that as a minimum. The old model if still pretty good.
If I had stereo eyes(for soldering), I would of considered this tube headphone kit;
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You can afford to be a bit choosy. My best sounding headphones jacks, right now, are my Sony STR-V5 receiver, Sony TC-k555 cassette, and Fostex DMT 8-vl disk recorder. I have dual MONO 4-watt tubes that do good, but I had to wire up MONO channels adapter.
So, I ended up with a cheap USB headphone DAC to play Hi-Res files. The headphone jack is "sorry", but it's got line out going right into my Sony receiver
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"I have to check my PC to see if it has a digital output that is compatible with my receiver's digital input."
Check the MOBO manual (download it if necessary) most have a S/PDIF header I am sure. If not and you have a spare PCI slot, you could buy a cheap soundcard such as the Trust 'Optical Expert' (think that is the name, will check) This has both co-ax and optical digital connections. Lst ditch is a USB AI.
AFAIK 'digital' is 'digital' the cost of the card does affect the sound quality.
Dave.
Check the MOBO manual (download it if necessary) most have a S/PDIF header I am sure. If not and you have a spare PCI slot, you could buy a cheap soundcard such as the Trust 'Optical Expert' (think that is the name, will check) This has both co-ax and optical digital connections. Lst ditch is a USB AI.
AFAIK 'digital' is 'digital' the cost of the card does affect the sound quality.
Dave.
Audio Shop is an Online UK sound card shop.
Second item down. Amazon no longer carry them so they might be a bit hard to find.
Dave.
Second item down. Amazon no longer carry them so they might be a bit hard to find.
Dave.
garww
New member
If you don't need high rates, a lot of old PCI cards can be found. My Blaster !live (4620?) w daughter card, Aureal 8830 (SAME AS Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, etc.), and ECHO Gina 20-bit were all under $10 on USA eBait. If you have electrical surplus around, you can rummage the barrels and get some for $2. That old Gina is a nice card
fwrunner2017
New member
Well, I tried connecting the coaxial S/PDIF jack on my PC to the receiver's coaxial digital input, but I was not able to get any output. The problem I think is that the receiver does not receive S/PDIF signal. According to its manual, it will read Dolby Digital, DTS, and PCM, but the software setup does show DTS Dolby, DTS audio, and Microsoft WMA Pro Audio. So maybe the receiver is the problem. It belonged to my brother, and he replaced it because something wasn't working.
I was able to improve the analog output of my Realtek system though, using the EQ settings provided by the software/driver. Still, it's certainly not as good as I would like.
I'm thinking that I can't really afford to spend money on an audio system upgrade for the PC, but on the other hand, I should do it now, while I still have the hearing to appreciate the higher quality sound system.
I have a very old SoundBlaster Live PCI card, but last time I tried it on this system (Windows 7) I could not get the drivers to hook up with the card. It's really not worth my time and effort to pursue it. So I guess I'll be looking for either a PCIE card, or a USB DAC. I would think that I would get better performance from a PCIE card, since USB power is limited, while PCIE is not (within the limits of my PSU of course). I'll have to see what I can get at a cost that I can afford.
FW
I was able to improve the analog output of my Realtek system though, using the EQ settings provided by the software/driver. Still, it's certainly not as good as I would like.
I'm thinking that I can't really afford to spend money on an audio system upgrade for the PC, but on the other hand, I should do it now, while I still have the hearing to appreciate the higher quality sound system.
I have a very old SoundBlaster Live PCI card, but last time I tried it on this system (Windows 7) I could not get the drivers to hook up with the card. It's really not worth my time and effort to pursue it. So I guess I'll be looking for either a PCIE card, or a USB DAC. I would think that I would get better performance from a PCIE card, since USB power is limited, while PCIE is not (within the limits of my PSU of course). I'll have to see what I can get at a cost that I can afford.
FW
fwrunner2017
New member
I found the UR22MKII on amazon for $122.39, but some of the reviews reveal that it has problems interfacing with some PC's, causing audio dropouts. I really don't want to spend $100+ and then have to struggle with the drivers, or make a lot of changes to the way my PC runs, since everything is running pretty well right now.
garww
New member
The Sound Blaster still might be a option, but they, generally, bring out a good one and use that name to capitalize on crappy ones : ) Use the KX driver, if you want to revisit it for further evaluation.
The thing is, low priced stuff will still sound low priced. It is not easy to determine where the meaningful upgrade starts. For headphones, I would want better power than either USB or PCI buss. This low watt stuff can do pretty good, but there aren't any big supply caps.
Right now, though, I'd just go line out of the computer to line in of the receiver. I've used stereo amps since my first PC sound card on the P90. Even the baby Rotel sounded much, much better.
The thing is, low priced stuff will still sound low priced. It is not easy to determine where the meaningful upgrade starts. For headphones, I would want better power than either USB or PCI buss. This low watt stuff can do pretty good, but there aren't any big supply caps.
Right now, though, I'd just go line out of the computer to line in of the receiver. I've used stereo amps since my first PC sound card on the P90. Even the baby Rotel sounded much, much better.
"I found the UR22MKII on amazon for $122.39, but some of the reviews reveal that it has problems interfacing with some PC's, causing audio dropouts. I really don't want to spend $100+ and then have to struggle with the drivers, or make a lot of changes to the way my PC runs, since everything is running pretty well right now."
You really can't think like that. My NI KA6 runs perfectly on XP, W7, W10 and even Blista! I know of two people that use one on a mac and one guy borrowed mine for a month to prove it out on Linuz then bought one...And yet, I bet if you did a search you would find several instances of people having a problem with the KA6. No interface or card ever made worked flawlessly on every computer all the time.
Before you start installing ANYTHING. Set a Restore point, better take an 'image' of the PC and store that on another drive (if you have one) . That way, whatever you do post Restore can be undone.
Nothing wrong with USB 2.0, not a damn thing. An interface with 4 ins, 4 outs MIDI and S/PDIF can be powered by such (just! The KA6) Or you could be lucky like I was and find a Focusrite 8i6 for £100 they have that same connectivity but need a 12V 2A PSU.
If USB power really bothers you get a USB 3.0 PCIe card, they have a MOLEX conn to use internal power. 900 freakin' milliamps! Whatever USB AI you buy run it off one USB port of a pair (sharing with a kebd or mouse is ok.)
Dave.
You really can't think like that. My NI KA6 runs perfectly on XP, W7, W10 and even Blista! I know of two people that use one on a mac and one guy borrowed mine for a month to prove it out on Linuz then bought one...And yet, I bet if you did a search you would find several instances of people having a problem with the KA6. No interface or card ever made worked flawlessly on every computer all the time.
Before you start installing ANYTHING. Set a Restore point, better take an 'image' of the PC and store that on another drive (if you have one) . That way, whatever you do post Restore can be undone.
Nothing wrong with USB 2.0, not a damn thing. An interface with 4 ins, 4 outs MIDI and S/PDIF can be powered by such (just! The KA6) Or you could be lucky like I was and find a Focusrite 8i6 for £100 they have that same connectivity but need a 12V 2A PSU.
If USB power really bothers you get a USB 3.0 PCIe card, they have a MOLEX conn to use internal power. 900 freakin' milliamps! Whatever USB AI you buy run it off one USB port of a pair (sharing with a kebd or mouse is ok.)
Dave.
fwrunner2017
New member
Thanks Dave;
The UR22MKII got mostly great reviews, but I always look at the bad before I look at the good. I'm just looking for possible issues that I might run into. Actually, USB 2.0 would work for me, since I can use either my receiver or a pre-amp that I have to get more power to the headphones. I will also try what garww suggested, and connect line-out on my PC to line-in on my stereo receiver, then plug the headphones into its jack. If I am driving the headphones too hard with the Realtek, that would certainly produce distortion, so the receiver will be able to correct that issue.
The UR22MKII got mostly great reviews, but I always look at the bad before I look at the good. I'm just looking for possible issues that I might run into. Actually, USB 2.0 would work for me, since I can use either my receiver or a pre-amp that I have to get more power to the headphones. I will also try what garww suggested, and connect line-out on my PC to line-in on my stereo receiver, then plug the headphones into its jack. If I am driving the headphones too hard with the Realtek, that would certainly produce distortion, so the receiver will be able to correct that issue.
garww
New member
" If I am driving the headphones too hard with the Realtek, that would certainly produce distortion, so the receiver will be able to correct that issue".
There is that. But I can't listen to music on any of my interfaces, or, soundcards. Monitoring is fine, and often, that seems all they were designed to do. You can find stuff with decent sounding op-amps on the cheap, anyway.
There is that. But I can't listen to music on any of my interfaces, or, soundcards. Monitoring is fine, and often, that seems all they were designed to do. You can find stuff with decent sounding op-amps on the cheap, anyway.
garww
New member
There is that. haha
The pleasure of fones is gone, but the good ear still gets 15-16k at a low level. The empty space between the ears give a decent stereo effect. Many things outside the regular measurements are still in the sound good perception - like how solid and sustained bass is.
So, my last DAC headphone amp goes line out to my best amp and I plug fones into that. My Tascam 144 mkii goes in there, too
The pleasure of fones is gone, but the good ear still gets 15-16k at a low level. The empty space between the ears give a decent stereo effect. Many things outside the regular measurements are still in the sound good perception - like how solid and sustained bass is.
So, my last DAC headphone amp goes line out to my best amp and I plug fones into that. My Tascam 144 mkii goes in there, too
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stevem5000
New member
FWRunner2017...
I went thru the same set of questions about 8 years ago or so...I was about 68 back then...(that's years old)...:>)
I was ripping my CD's at 128k and pretty much enjoying what I had...
Then I decided to do an experiment much like you did...
I chose a couple of Led Zep songs, including Going to California (one of my all-time fav's)...a couple of Nora Jones, a Normal Blake, 2 Gordon Lightfoot's...and an old Cozy Cole the drummer from the early '60's...Then I put in a Dizzy Gillespie, John Coltrane and a Beatles song from the White Album...
The Cozy Cole came of a CD that is of dubious quality...but I like his drum style so I took it...
I copied all these songs...think I had about 15 or so from a variety of musical styles...copied all of them onto a single CD in .WAV format...
Then I ripped that CD to MP3 at 128k, 192k and 320k...That gave me a total of 4 CD's...WAV, MP3 128, MP3 192 and MP3 320...
I don't recall what ripping engine I used back then...but I assume it was whatever I had on the computer at the time...and I don;t know if it
was LAME or not...
I listened and I listened and I could tell in many cases differences between the 128 and the 192...I could NOT hear any difference between 192 and 320...
Nor could I hear any differences between 320 and WAV...So now I rip everything at 192...
Now...there is another side to this...My computer speakers were the Klipsch 3.1 computer speakers for about $180...that was what I could afford at the time...
And I did not have a decent home stereo system...and the system in my truck at the time was "decent"...but I could hear some differences in my truck system between 192 and 320...
Have no idea why that would be...
I came away from that experiment thinking that what you hear depends on how good your ears are...younger people have better sensitivity to slight differences than older folks (like me)...
And the differences seem to similar between various systems...
Now things have changed for me...my computer speakers are Event 8" powered studio monitors and my home system is a Yamaha receiver pushing B&W towers...
I retired and got into the hobby of digitizing old analog audio for some bands around town...and in my research wound up with a M-Delta PCI audio card...not made anymore but turned out
to be a good deal from eBay...
With this current system....a few months ago I went back to those same original CD's I made...and now I COULD hear more differences than I could 6-8 years ago...better sound reproducing system...at least that's my assumption...
Now I rip MP3's with the M-Delta audio card, using DBPoweramp running LAME...still at 192k...OR I use WAV...one or the other...I CAN hear differences between 192k and WAV...but the difference is most cases is minimal...But the difference in file size is the determining issue...WAV runs around 30-40 meg or so...and MP3 at 192K usually around 4mb or so...
I use an old Sony Walkman MP3 player that has 16 Gb of memory...so file does become an issue here...
So...that's my 2 cents to this discussion...hopefully someone will benefit...
I went thru the same set of questions about 8 years ago or so...I was about 68 back then...(that's years old)...:>)
I was ripping my CD's at 128k and pretty much enjoying what I had...
Then I decided to do an experiment much like you did...
I chose a couple of Led Zep songs, including Going to California (one of my all-time fav's)...a couple of Nora Jones, a Normal Blake, 2 Gordon Lightfoot's...and an old Cozy Cole the drummer from the early '60's...Then I put in a Dizzy Gillespie, John Coltrane and a Beatles song from the White Album...
The Cozy Cole came of a CD that is of dubious quality...but I like his drum style so I took it...
I copied all these songs...think I had about 15 or so from a variety of musical styles...copied all of them onto a single CD in .WAV format...
Then I ripped that CD to MP3 at 128k, 192k and 320k...That gave me a total of 4 CD's...WAV, MP3 128, MP3 192 and MP3 320...
I don't recall what ripping engine I used back then...but I assume it was whatever I had on the computer at the time...and I don;t know if it
was LAME or not...
I listened and I listened and I could tell in many cases differences between the 128 and the 192...I could NOT hear any difference between 192 and 320...
Nor could I hear any differences between 320 and WAV...So now I rip everything at 192...
Now...there is another side to this...My computer speakers were the Klipsch 3.1 computer speakers for about $180...that was what I could afford at the time...
And I did not have a decent home stereo system...and the system in my truck at the time was "decent"...but I could hear some differences in my truck system between 192 and 320...
Have no idea why that would be...
I came away from that experiment thinking that what you hear depends on how good your ears are...younger people have better sensitivity to slight differences than older folks (like me)...
And the differences seem to similar between various systems...
Now things have changed for me...my computer speakers are Event 8" powered studio monitors and my home system is a Yamaha receiver pushing B&W towers...
I retired and got into the hobby of digitizing old analog audio for some bands around town...and in my research wound up with a M-Delta PCI audio card...not made anymore but turned out
to be a good deal from eBay...
With this current system....a few months ago I went back to those same original CD's I made...and now I COULD hear more differences than I could 6-8 years ago...better sound reproducing system...at least that's my assumption...
Now I rip MP3's with the M-Delta audio card, using DBPoweramp running LAME...still at 192k...OR I use WAV...one or the other...I CAN hear differences between 192k and WAV...but the difference is most cases is minimal...But the difference in file size is the determining issue...WAV runs around 30-40 meg or so...and MP3 at 192K usually around 4mb or so...
I use an old Sony Walkman MP3 player that has 16 Gb of memory...so file does become an issue here...
So...that's my 2 cents to this discussion...hopefully someone will benefit...