Studio Monitors

There seems to be a bickering here only for the sake of bickering now....

Summation of last threads:

New expensive monitors purchased; YAY! and happy!.

Manufacturer says take time to run them in your environment so they break in and give their best results; YAY! no problem.

Someone makes a comment about why that is needed. Obviously a valid question and a good thread topic; Yay! Cool to engage.

Thread moves to and argument about how or whether the break in period is needed; HUH? Why the hell do you care?

And if one does or does not have the ears to hear the change, then it doesn't matter. :)

Personally I noticed a change in my A7x monitors after 20 hours. I stated that the mids became clearer and the highs less harsh. Not sure about the low end because I also have a sub. I didn't notice much change there though the clarity of all was much better.

So, the point here is not about why a manufacturer would not 'break in' a speaker themselves. In fact I personally like that the manufacturer gives me the opportunity to do the 'break in' within my studio environment. Contrary to other speaker manufacturers that lie to you and say their monitors sound great in your room-no matter what size or environment...


Can we just let this one die please? Looking forward to hearing how you get on with your Focals Miro! I bet it is going to be like Christmas at 10 years of age. Only a few years later in life. :)
 
I personally like that the manufacturer gives me the opportunity to do the 'break in' within my studio environment.

:thumbs up:
I had the exact same thought.

No different than a new guitar that you set-up to your tastes...even if they did it at the factory.

Can we just let this one die please? Looking forward to hearing how you get on with your Focals Miro! I bet it is going to be like Christmas at 10 years of age. Only a few years later in life. :)

:thumbs up:

Been thinking about getting new monitors for like the last 5 years.
 
"Been thinking about getting new monitors for like the last 5 years".

Imagine what the SM9 upgrade will be like in five years : )
 
Imagine what the SM9 upgrade will be like in five years : )

:)

To tie this back into the original monitor discussion...

I think it's actually OK for someone starting out to just go with some more budget friendly choices, and get a decent entry level set of monitors because you kinda need to learn how to listen before you start to appreciate the next level of monitor or even other audio gear.

These Focal Twin6 are my 4th....or probably 5th set over the years.
The Mackie HR824 monitors that I'm replacing were purchased about...15 years ago...and the monitors before them I had for maybe 10-12 years.
When I got the Mackies...it was time...I knew at least 4-5 years earlier that I needed something better, but when I first got those other ones (Tannoys) I thought they were real good...then after a few years, I could hear that they weren't delivering what my hearing needed.
Same thing with the Mackies...when they replaced the Tannoys...I was blown away, but maybe after about 5 years with them, I started to sense that they were not giving me everything I wanted to hear...and I kinda worked with them and around them...but I knew at least 5 years ago that I should up my game.

These Foclas will probably be great for several years, and then my hearing will adjust again (hopefully for the better)...and I might find myself again looking for the next step up.

I think this is fairly normal. Some recording newb might not really understand a set of higher end, more critical monitors, because he still hasn't trained his hearing how to listen. Instead, he listens like the average person...and look at what you have these days, everyone on their iPhones and ear buds ...and most of the general public does not listen critically.
So working your way through a few "stages" of audio recording development is probably a natural process.
 
The more you hear, the more you can nit-pik. For mixing, I think many people can see that there may be a level of being cheated that is immaterial to good work. Now, the Twins and 824 do this thing differently. Understatement. Hope you remix some stuff and share your observations
 
So my Focal Twin6 Be monitors arrived on Monday, and I set them up yesterday just kinda quick without any measuring and positioning....just to her them.
I have to say...I was very happy with them right out of the box. They look fantastic, and I can hear what people are talking about, how they push the mids forward and tighten up the lows. It was easy to hear the low-mid problem areas that I always chased with my Mackie HR824 monitors, which then to hide that. With the Mackies, the low end is just really big and wide, but it doesn't reveal the mud zone as well as it's needed for mixing.

I'm sure when the Focals break in a bit they will only sound better.

I had a moment of do-ubt over the weekend, because I spent too much time reading comments and how some people said the Twin6 monitors sounded great with the Sub...something I didn't want to add. So I started getting the impression that the Twin6 didn't have enough low end. At one point I started thinking that maybe I should have gotten the Trio6...'cuz if the Twin6 *needed* the Sub...then why spend the extra money on the Sub, when I can just go with the Trio6 for the same price as the Twin6 monitors + Sub.
I even spoke with my Sweetwater rep...asking how complicated to make the switch to the Trio6...but he actually talked me off that ledge.. :D ...and said I should just give the Twin6 a got trial for a couple of weeks, and after that, if I felt they were lacking in any way, he would work it out with my to return them and get the Trio6.

All my doubts were erased as soon as I played some music through the Twin6 monitors. They have plenty of low end....it's just different than what I was use to with the Mackies, which had a bigger, pillowy low end, that sounds pleasant, but it's not as accurate for mixing.
The Twin6 low end is very tight and precise...and I think adding a Sub might only be worth doing if you're doing EDM/Hip-Hop, and you want that ridiculous sub-low to rattle the room....not to mention, you would need the right size room, and perfect placement.

AFA the Trio6, I'm sure they have more of that sub-low, considering they have the bigger, 8" woofer...but again, they probably need a good size room to allow you crank them up and make proper use of that much sub-lows.
My Mackies have a tendency to load up my room with lows because of their 8" woofer, and especially because of the passive radiator in the back. With the Mackies fairly close to the front wall...the radiators or any kind of rear ports are not the best option...but hey, when I got the Mackies, they sounded pretty good.

I'm very confident that the Twin6 monitors are going to be the right fit for my studio, and give me the accuracy and low end tightness I wasn't quite getting with the Mackies...
...and I'll wait on the Trio6 for if/when I ever move to a bigger studio space. :)

I'll post back again after I break them in a bit and have more time to compare things.
 
All my doubts were erased as soon as I played some music through the Twin6 monitors. They have plenty of low end....it's just different than what I was use to with the Mackies, which had a bigger, pillowy low end, that sounds pleasant, but it's not as accurate for mixing.
The Twin6 low end is very tight and precise...and I think adding a Sub might only be worth doing if you're doing EDM/Hip-Hop, and you want that ridiculous sub-low to rattle the room....not to mention, you would need the right size room, and perfect placement.

They key for me with integrating a sub has been to have the crossover set properly, with no overlap (or minimize the overlapping frequencies as much as possible), and have the sub handle only the very lowest of the range the monitors are weaker at producing themselves. I'll only mention that 80hz seems to be the sweet spot for my particular combination of speakers, that of course will vary case by case. This is also coincidentally exactly where they set the high pass filter on the new sub, so it must be a common weakness for monitors.

The goal isn't to rattle windows, it's to hear (or in this case 'feel') those lowest frequencies. It's just another tool to eliminate guess work, and I find I can get a nice, deep, punchy kick drum mix now without also clouding it with too much of the bass synth or bass guitar. Sure, I could shuffle the mix out to the living room (home theater) numerous times like I used too not that long ago, but for the extra cash I save myself the guess work and add a degree of precision to the process.

Due to space constraints, I went with the $330 Presonus 8 inch sub. It's TRS and fully filters the frequencies to the monitors so there's zero overlap [using the previously mention high pass filter, hard set to 80hz... the variable crossover knob does not change the signal sent to the monitors]. It does sound fantastic.
 
Well...if the monitors have issues at the 80HZ mark, as many smaller ones seem to...then you have no choice but the get the Sub so you can hear the stuff below.

In that regard the Focal Twin6 have no issue...they go down to 40Hz without any problem, and there's a LF contour that lets up pump the low end even more if you really want it.
The reason some people were talking about adding the Sub had more to do with getting a bigger punch out of the stuff *below* 40Hz...because they were doing EDM/Hip-Hop...where it actually IS about rattling the room with sub lows. Those guys want to "feel" the mix as much if not more than just hearing it. :)
 
Well...if the monitors have issues at the 80HZ mark, as many smaller ones seem to...then you have no choice but the get the Sub so you can hear the stuff below.

In that regard the Focal Twin6 have no issue...they go down to 40Hz without any problem, and there's a LF contour that lets up pump the low end even more if you really want it.
The reason some people were talking about adding the Sub had more to do with getting a bigger punch out of the stuff *below* 40Hz...because they were doing EDM/Hip-Hop...where it actually IS about rattling the room with sub lows. Those guys want to "feel" the mix as much if not more than just hearing it. :)

Many lower and mid range 8" monitors struggle below 80hz. the sub is an inexpensive way of getting more clarity from them, in addition to the other benefits the sub adds as I described.

You can feel 50, 60hz. You really *need* to as that's the sweet spot for the thump of a kick drum (and largest floor toms). Unless someone prefers a thin, 1980s style kick which sounds like a large snare or medium tom on some of the '80s mixes. :p

My post was not aimed at your particular monitors, but rather a general "this is what subs are being used for by rock musicians/home recorders".
 
And I was just adding that with the Twins...the guys who wanted the Sub were mostly the ones doing EDM/Hip Hop.
I mean...even the Sweetwater rep asked me that right off..."Do you do a lot of EDM/Hip-Hip?"...when I said no, he said then don't waste your time with a Sub.

That said...there is also the other school of thought, that a Sub is added to fix what your monitors can't do...and also, adding a Sub can introduce more issues than it solves. Placement is key, and even some of the better rooms don't always deal well with a Sub.
It really is a personal thing. I've never cared for them, and I know many who feel the same.
My only concern before the Twins arrived was that a Sub was "needed"...which I realized was not the case about 5 seconds after I turned them on. Fantastically tight and accurate low end on them....and I still have to break them in, which according to most owners, only makes them sound even better in the low end.
 
That said...there is also the other school of thought, that a Sub is added to fix what your monitors can't do...

Well yes, not everyone can afford to drop the coin needed on really good monitors. Sometimes throwing $330 at a problem, if it actually helps address the issue, is worth it versus having to sell what you have at a loss and buying much more expensive monitors.
 
I only need 50Hz to 15kHz, but could certainly see the extra Driver cleaning up distortions crossed over in the 200-350Hz range when using small boxes.

For me, with levels and EQ in the Dark DEEP, what is it I think I'm doing besides EQing my monitors ?
 
The bottom line here is the room you are listening in. A small room will likely be thrown into shit land with a sub. And I mean even with a quality sub.

But, it is not the genre that determines whether you need one or not. I personally would want to be able to hear every aspect of a mix and especially the sub low end. Just because you don't work with EDM or whatever does not mean you do not need to hear it.

That being said, I am lucky enough to have a room with somewhat adequate treatment and ability to have a sub work well for me.

I would be really surprised if a pro producer ever once said, 'I don't ever want a sub while I mix'. But then they don't tend to mix in bedrooms.
 
I bought fones for bass appreciation, I don't need it with nearfields and midfields. I'm not EDM, but I gots plenty of it. No, I don't need more cops at my door : ) That last analog kick I bought has been satisfying and I just let it be what it is & messing with the uppers for perception. I got plenty of Pro Packs that are level set.
 
I would be really surprised if a pro producer ever once said, 'I don't ever want a sub while I mix'. But then they don't tend to mix in bedrooms.

I'm sure many do not...I don't see why you would think they are always in use by the pros...?
I've read where many who are doing more pro-level commercial work saying that they don't use or like subs....likewise, there are those who do, and it just happens that the EDM/Hip-Hop guys lead the pack for sub use. :)

One thing to consider is that many of the pros are in control rooms with huge wall monitor systems, and big 3-way mid-field monitors, all in the very high-end...and they simply don't need to add a sub.
I do however notice that a lot of the smaller studio guys, and the home guys will opt for subs, and I think it has to do with the basic monitors they are using not being able to deliver the very low end....but I also don't see a need to have any enhanced reproduction of stuff well below 40Hz for most music styles.
Most everyone is rolling the shit off their low end ...it's like HP filter at 80Hz are the norm for many (not something I agree with)...but it's become all to common...so with that in mind, the use of subs would be really pointless.

I mean...when you look at some of the near and mid field stuff on the high end...like from Barefoot, PMC, ATC, Genelec, Focal, etc...they often employ 3-way monitors with large 8"-10" woofers, plus many have additional passive radiators and such...so really, there's just no need for a sub....unless the music you do lives a lot in the sub-40Hz range.

Here's a nice, short article about subs and steps to properly add one.

In The Studio: Three Steps To Adding A Subwoofer - ProSoundWeb

The room is so key...considering that a 50Hz soundwave needs over 22' for a single cycle.
Jamming lots of that energy into smaller, tighter spaces is often more worse than better.
 
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While I try to stay away from that in my music room, It's still fun, and/or a quest for others. Plenty of old records out there with pipe organ hitting 16Hz, etc.. I don't really care about that very often. though. I think the original Telarc 1812 is 12Hz ? I think I last used my 12-inch sub around 1994 ? As far as I can tell, bass 'n kick on the streets is still popular : )
 
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