Serial ATA and other stuff

[getuhgrip]

I love it when my kid gets a computer upgrade! It usually means he's inheriting my last box, and I'm getting some new toys.

As I plot and plan for some new stuff, I feel like I'm behind the learning curve again. I've been running socket A chips for the last couple years but now I don't know if I wanna try an Intel 755 (3.2) or AMD's 939 (athalon 3500). I'm not sure I understand all the hype about these 64 bit processors.

I'm also seeing PCI Express on many of these boards, but since I just got a Radeon 9800 last year, I think I'll be sticking with AGP.

The last thing I'm iffy about is a hard drive and SATA. Western Digital's Raptor is a 10,000rpm unit. Can this drive be used alone, or must it be used in a RAID configuration? I just like the idea of the smaller SATA cables and a 10k rpm drive.

Any thoughts or comments?

 

[MrBoogie]

You can use that drive alone. A lot of people talk about raid as if you need it, but these newer drivers are hella fast, and especially the 10Krpm drives. I think it always gets suggested in this forum, but in case you didn't know, it's really a good idea to use a separate drive for your system and your audio data, but it's not absolutely critical.

What sample rate/bit depth do you prefer to use when recording? That might have a bearing on whether you want to do raid or not.

The biggest difference about 64bit cpus is the ability to address more RAM, "well beyond 4GB" according to AMD. (I can't remember the exact number right now.) But, there are other technological advances in these processors. For example, on the Athlon64, the memory controller is on the cpu, and that alone gives a considerable speed boost.

I don't know many specifics about the newer Intel chips. One thing about hyperthreading, though; I was curious about it a while back and asked on one of the Intel IRC channels about it - told them I was thinking of building a system to check it out. I was told by the "Intel gurus" in there that it wasn't a big difference and in many cases it gives no noticeable improvement at all. They told me not to waste my time if that was the only reason I wanted to build an Intel system. There's a little demo on the Intel website that explains how it works.

As far as AGP vs PCIe, AGP is fine, especially for a non-gaming computer. AGP was a huge improvement over PCI (not PCIe), partly because improved bandwidth, but even more importantly for audio, AGP doesn't share bandwidth with the PCI bus so you don't have those issues to deal with.

My biggest advice I like to tell people building a system is please don't settle for an inexpensive motherboard like those crappy ECS "fry's specials". Those are so hit and miss, you might end up with a stable system, and you might not. And they aren't exactly great on performance.

MrBoogie

 

[RawDepth]

SATA drives will soon become the new standard over IDE. (If not already) They can be used alone or paired in a RAID the same as IDE drives. Most new motherboards come with a SATA controller built in now. I own a Western Digital Raptor drive and they say it is the fastest drive on the planet, even beating out all SCSI drives. I will soon buy a second one. Not for a RAID array but instead as two stand alone drives. Because my software can record to two drives simultaneously, sending odd tracks to one and even tracks to the other. I should have no trouble with high track counts when live recording.

I believe Windows XP is a 32 bit OS. I understand that it won’t make full use of the 64 bit processors until the next version due out in 2006. But it still at least runs them for now.

Good Luck,
RawDepth

 

[Rstiltskin]

Mr. Boogie has given you some excellent info.....

I love it when my kid gets a computer upgrade! It usually means he's inheriting my last box, and I'm getting some new toys.

As I plot and plan for some new stuff, I feel like I'm behind the learning curve again. I've been running socket A chips for the last couple years but now I don't know if I wanna try an Intel 755 (3.2) or AMD's 939 (athalon 3500). I'm not sure I understand all the hype about these 64 bit processors.

I'm also seeing PCI Express on many of these boards, but since I just got a Radeon 9800 last year, I think I'll be sticking with AGP.

The last thing I'm iffy about is a hard drive and SATA. Western Digital's Raptor is a 10,000rpm unit. Can this drive be used alone, or must it be used in a RAID configuration? I just like the idea of the smaller SATA cables and a 10k rpm drive.

Any thoughts or comments?

much better than the usual "intel sucks" and "amd rules".

if you really want to dig, you could check out these sites:

www.videoguys.com ........ look for their 'do it yourself' system and 'xp tweaks' most of the info for video editing transfers well to audio.

www.tomshardware.com ...... big name in independent evaluations between intel and amd. they just conducted a shoot out tween the new dual core amd and intel dual core with hyperthreading.

if you want the short version, amd has the most raw horsepower and beats intel on aps that are not specifically written to use hyperthreading. IF, however, your ap does use hyperthreading things can change dramatically.

don't forget the chipset. for amd the hot one seems the nvidia nforce4, for the intel, stick with the intel 9xx series.

asus has the buzz as the most reliable motherboards, abit some of the fastest and overclockable, but not as reliable.

the raptors are fast, but not big, so unless you use 2 of the 74 gig in a raid array (0, striping, I think). you could use one 36 gig raptor for your immediate project and to track to and a 400 for things not immediatly needed. bear in mind, two cheaper 7200 rpm drives in a raid array might be as fast or faster on big files than one raptor.

my thought is not to take my word for it, but to dig in to the two sites above.

 

[AGCurry]

the raptors are fast, but not big, so unless you use 2 of the 74 gig in a raid array (0, striping, I think). you could use one 36 gig raptor for your immediate project and to track to and a 400 for things not immediatly needed. bear in mind, two cheaper 7200 rpm drives in a raid array might be as fast or faster on big files than one raptor.

my thought is not to take my word for it, but to dig in to the two sites above.

Keep in mind that a) RAID implemented in software (through the OS) does not yield substantial performance improvement, and b) in RAID 0, if ONE of the two drives fails, you've lost ALL your data.

 

[RawDepth]

RAID implemented in software (through the OS) does not yield substantial performance improvement

RAID implemented in software?? I don't think there is such a thing. Please explain.

 

[Rstiltskin]

yes, I think xp will do it.....but nobody does it, that I know of...

RAID implemented in software?? I don't think there is such a thing. Please explain.

xp will also encrypt your harddrive, if you want to.

I think, I am not sure, most of the glue chip companies (sis, nvidia,via, etc) bought or copied or otherwise incorporated promise or highpoint raid logic into their glue chipsets, otherwise thay have a separate controller on the motherboard that will usually handle raid transparently (to the os).

raid 0 (striping, no data redundency or parity (no protection for your data) is the fastest and cheapest at writing and reading big video or audio files.

I was not clear, I guess, but I would never consider ANY data safe on any harddrive if I did not have at least two verified backups.

even though I have been in the computer biz for 35 years (oh my god!) I still lose data when I don't take my own advice.

 

[MrBoogie]

...I think, I am not sure, most of the glue chip companies (sis, nvidia,via, etc) bought or copied or otherwise incorporated promise or highpoint raid logic into their glue chipsets, otherwise thay have a separate controller on the motherboard that will usually handle raid transparently (to the os)....

This is one point that has confused me a bit. I have found that none of the boards I have worked with that have onboard RAID controllers (highpoint AND promise) are true hardware controllers. I know it sounds weird, but they all REQUIRE drivers to be loaded before you install windows, or in Linux, the kernel has to support it already. Also, as I understand it, the cpu usage for these onboard controllers is higher than a real RAID controller, and the performance gains are not as good. The thing that confuses me is what's the point of having a whole chip dedicated to RAID if it is so dependent on software?

Do you know of a specific board that does RAID transparently to the OS (other than a server board)?

 

[Rstiltskin]

I went thru this with my abit board with a promise or

This is one point that has confused me a bit. I have found that none of the boards I have worked with that have onboard RAID controllers (highpoint AND promise) are true hardware controllers. I know it sounds weird, but they all REQUIRE drivers to be loaded before you install windows, or in Linux, the kernel has to support it already. Also, as I understand it, the cpu usage for these onboard controllers is higher than a real RAID controller, and the performance gains are not as good. The thing that confuses me is what's the point of having a whole chip dedicated to RAID if it is so dependent on software?

Do you know of a specific board that does RAID transparently to the OS (other than a server board)?

highpoint separate raid chip and intel 440 bx chipset.

(DISCLAIMER) it has been a couple years.....

as I remember, I went thru the install several times (4 or 5) and it kept asking for drivers at the start of the install if you were going to use raid. I kept trying to find the FUCKING DRIVERS.

as I remember (another DISCLAIMER) the drivers are for SCSI raid controller cards. the promise raid is set up in the bios and firmware BEFORE OS install. after you do this, XP only 'sees' one drive. if you tell xp it is raid, xp will do the software raid thing, not really using your promise or highpoint controller.

as I remember, the damn things don't take any drivers at all. it is all in firmware and in bios.

I think www.tomshardware.com has some tests of different configs. If you are really interested I would dig into that site, and www.videoguys.com has several articles on XP tweaks, but you may have to email them this particular question, ask for gary in tek, I am SURE they know, I just don't remember it particularly answered on their site, but tomshardware goes into it.

remember, I am older than dirt, so be gentle if I sound like an idiot. but i think this is right, cause it really pissed me off at the time, cause I wasted so much of it!

 

[Springo]

I installed a 74GB Raptor and it's great. I have about six GB of loops on it so that I can call up my favorites quickly. Other than that, the drive is empty except for whatever projects that I am working on. There is plenty of room because as soon as a track is finished then it is moved off of the drive to other hard drives. The Raptor is purely for doing work on. So there will never be any headroom or fragmentation issues. I plan to eventually add another 74GB Raptor though, just for the added capacity, but the one is doing fine for now. I do not plan to run them in a RAID configuration. I do not think that any added performance is worth the price of an expensive drive that is basically -wasted- for all practical purposes.

 

[Rstiltskin]

raid 0 alternately strips data from one drive to the other....

I installed a 74GB Raptor and it's great. I have about six GB of loops on it so that I can call up my favorites quickly. Other than that, the drive is empty except for whatever projects that I am working on. There is plenty of room because as soon as a track is finished then it is moved off of the drive to other hard drives. The Raptor is purely for doing work on. So there will never be any headroom or fragmentation issues. I plan to eventually add another 74GB Raptor though, just for the added capacity, but the one is doing fine for now. I do not plan to run them in a RAID configuration. I do not think that any added performance is worth the price of an expensive drive that is basically -wasted- for all practical purposes.

so it can move to read or write to the next drive before the other is finished. so with 2 raptors in raid 0 you would not waste any space and it would be faster.

in raid 1 (I think) you get into mirroring, where one drive is a copy of the other. it writes to both simultaniously (or close to it) and usually reads from the drive with the closest head position to the data, so you get a little increase in speed on reads, but none one writes, and one drive is 'wasted' on duplicate data. what you may want on a high uptime server, not what you want on a audio or video editing system.

I see no reason to go to a raid system if you are pleased with the proformance you are getting (and it sounds like you are).

 

[AGCurry]

Windows 2000 and XP Professional both implement RAID in the OS - no additional hardware is required. But because it's implemented in software, the efficiency gains of RAID 0 are negligible.

 

[JazzMang]

Windows 2000 and XP Professional both implement RAID in the OS - no additional hardware is required. But because it's implemented in software, the efficiency gains of RAID 0 are negligible.

The software implementation will actually yield better throughput results than a hardware configuration, because of optimized coding, but there is a lot more CPU overhead involved in using dynamic discs in WinDoze, so just stay away from it altogether.

That, and your main boot drive(s) cannot be RAIDed with this implementation.

Windows will need store your MBR (master boot record) on a standard disc of some sort, therefore you will need a minimum of 3 HDDs for this configuration to work.

In short, if you are using a PCI based soundcard (as opposed to firewire implementations, do not use a PCI RAID controller... only use ones that are implemented within the chipset of your particular motherboard... do not assume that because it is onboard that it is chipset based... these use PHY interfaces that still can run off of your PCI bus! Beware!


~JazzMang

 

[Rstiltskin]

there are opinions, then there are opinions backed up by tests and experience.....

The software implementation will actually yield better throughput results than a hardware configuration, because of optimized coding, but there is a lot more CPU overhead involved in using dynamic discs in WinDoze, so just stay away from it altogether.

That, and your main boot drive(s) cannot be RAIDed with this implementation.

Windows will need store your MBR (master boot record) on a standard disc of some sort, therefore you will need a minimum of 3 HDDs for this configuration to work.

In short, if you are using a PCI based soundcard (as opposed to firewire implementations, do not use a PCI RAID controller... only use ones that are implemented within the chipset of your particular motherboard... do not assume that because it is onboard that it is chipset based... these use PHY interfaces that still can run off of your PCI bus! Beware!


~JazzMang

and please don't say video editing does not apply to audio, 90 percent of it does............

http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20021112/index.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20020830/index.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20030620/index.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20041119/index.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20020813/index.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20041026/index.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20031114/index.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20050421/index.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20040420/nforce3_250gb-02.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20050629/index.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20050530/data_recovery-06.html

The Desk Top Video Handbook Ver 15.0
Videoguys' Recommended Solutions for Video Storage (Jan '05 update)
One of the most confusing things about digital videography is the storage requirement. In this section of The Desk Top Video Handbook On Line we will help you better understand just what kind of storage you will require for your video productions.
Finally digital videographers have a range of choices for storing their digital video files. Todays new hard drive and RAID technologies combined with larger, cheaper drives have made Desk Top Video more affordable then ever!!! We offer digital video storage solutions for every level of video and budget.

Videoguys storage rule #1
You can never have too much storage
DV compressed video requires 13GB per hour of footage. While this may not seem like a big deal to you today, it sure was just a few short years ago. Back in 1998 a 9GB SCSI drive would cost you over $1500!! And if you wanted to create great looking video, you had no choice but to invest that kind of money. Today's Ultra 100 EIDE drives and SATA drives are almost as fast and they are a fraction of the cost. I saw an ad in my Sunday newspaper from one of the big computer chains for a 160GB SATA drive $99.95 after mail in rebate!!
For best resuIts we suggest you configure your system with 2 EIDE drives. A 40GB+ for your operating system and software plus a dedicated 80+GB for video. With 80+ gigs of video storage you will have no problem producing a 90-minute production and several of 30 minute shows.

Videoguys storage rule #2
It's the throughput baby!
Seek times and peak transfer rates mean nothing for video production. All we care about is sustained throughput. We don't care about the highest specs of the drive. We only care about the minimum. If the sustained data rate of the drive dips below the required transfer rate for our video, the result is jerky playback, messed up audio and dropped frames. Given today's technology, there is no excuse for this. When in doubt, get better storage then you think you will need.
RPMs are a good indicator of a drives over-all performance. For video work we recommend drives rated 7200 RPM or faster. We have found that many 5400 RPM drives do not have the sustained throughput required for NLE work.

Videoguys storage rule #3
SATA ROCKS!
If you are getting a new computer, make sure you go with 7200RPM SATA drives. We have been getting performance with SATA drives in our DIY systems. SATA drives offer outstanding sustained throughputs. They also have another advantage over EIDE, that we feel is worth noting here. SATA cables are round and much smaller then the EIDE ribbon cables. As a result they are easier to place within your computer case and even more importantly, they allow for dramatically better airflow. Heat is the enemy of your hard drives. The hotter it gets inside your case, the more likely you are to run into performance issues. If it gets hot enough, you drives will fail. With SATA cabling, you get much better airflow, which helps keep everything cooler inside your case.
While you can save a few dollars by going with an EIDE drive for your boot drive and SATA for your video, we recommend going to all SATA. The cost premium is minimal. Storage is not the place to cut corners when you're going to be editing video with your computer.

Videoguys storage rule #4
A single drive will get slower as it fills with data.
This is because a hard drive is a spinning disk. Back when we all had turntables and records, this was very easy to explain. If you placed a penny on the outer edge of the record, it would travel a much greater distance in a single rotation then a penny placed near the label on the inside of the LP. More distance over the same period of time equals greater speed. Using this analogy today just gets me a strange look by most people. But the reality is still the same: A single EIDE drive will get slower as it fills with data.
Drives are so big, affordable & fast today that this rule at times does not even apply. You can buy a 250GB drive for around $200, that's big enough to store over 9 hours of video. Lets say you can only use 75% of the drives capacity. That still leaves you with enough room for 6 hours of video!

Videoguys storage rule #5
RAIDs are GREAT for video!!
RAID stands for Redundant Array of Independent Disks. What it means is that 2 or more drives are grouped and formatted together in order to provide greater storage and performance. There are several different types of RAID. Servers typically use RAID 1 (mirroring) or RAID 5 for data protection. For video we use something called RAID 0 (striping) for speed. The computer sees the striped drives as a single drive and the data is split between the drives, making the sustained throughput much higher. Two 120GB drives striped together result in 240GB of storage!!
Setting up a RAID is very simple and easy to do. If you can, get a motherboard that has a built in SATA RAID controller. Not only will this work great, but you'll find it also comes with very easy to use and follow RAID configuration software.
For video editing the Videoguys recommend the following RAID storage configuration:
1. SATA Boot drive (40GB or larger)
2. Pair of Identical SATA drives striped in a RAID0 configuration (2 x 120GB = 240GB)
3. (optional) 4th SATA drive (40GB or larger) for back-ups, digital photo library, MP3 library

Videoguys storage rule #6
If you plan on creating your own DVDs, you need plenty of storage!!
At best quality a single sided 4.7GB DVD holds just under 2 hours of video. To make a 2hr DVD is going to require a very large amount of disk space. Here is a little math exercise that will explain just how much storage you will be needing.
A. If you are starting with DV footage, you need 13GB per hour of video.
B. This means a 2 hour DVD is 2 x 13 = 26GB of footage.
C. Add in the extra unused footage and it's more like 3 x 13 = 39GB.
D. Figure that you'll be adding some extra graphics and audio tracks. Let's say another 2GB for these.
E. Now you need room for the MPEG2 footage for the DVD, that's 4.7GB more.
F. If you plan on creating the DVD in a folder first (we recommend this) that's another 4.7GB.
G. Add it all up and it comes to over 50GB of high speed video storage to make a 2 hour DVD!!

Videoguys storage rule #7
Resolutions beyond DV25 DEMAND better storage!!
HD, HDTV, Hi-Def, High Definition - call it what you want. If you plan on going to these new, more professional formats then you must give them the storage they require. Uncompressed video requires throughputs only possible with a very serious RAID configuration. You'll need sustained data rates above 120 MB/second.
Plan on RAID 0 striping a pair of SATA drives at a minimum if you are going to edit HiDef footage. For best results look into getting an external storage solution like our Medea VideoRAIDs - especially if your needs will be a terabyte or more. By having your storage outside your computer you avoid all the extra heat inside it. VideoRAIDs are designed with exceptional airflow and cooling, making them very reliable.


Which storage system should I buy?
Here is our recommendation based on the current pricing structure
a. If you want the lowest possible cost, get a pair of identical 7200RPM SATA drives (80GB or larger) and stripe them together yourself. This increases the thorughtput of the drives and lets you use the entire capacity. This is called a RAID-O stripe. Striping together a pair of 120Gb drives will give you 240Gb of screaming fast storage. You can stripe them together using the Disk Management utility in Win2K or XP, For even more performance get a motherboard with a built in SATA EIDE RAID controller or add a PCI SATA RAID controller card.
b. If you want to add external storage, we now recommend FireWire drives and drive kits with our software based NLE solutions (Avid Xpress DV, Pinnacle Liquid Edition, Sony Vegas 5, Ulead Media Studio Pro & Adobe Premiere Pro). Make sure you get a drive that spins at 7200 RPM and has at least 2MB cache. We have found that for best results you will want to have an additional FireWire controller card in your computer. Attach your DV camcorder to the first FireWire card and hook up your external FireWire storage to the second card. Using this configuration helps to avoid potential PCI bottlenecks that occur from using a single card multiple ports or daisy chaining on a single FireWire connection. Note: We do not recommend FireWire drives with PCI based hardware accelerator cards.
c. If you want the best professional solution, SCSI is still the king. SCSI has the advantages of being internal or external and totally expandable. External drives can be easily moved from machine to machine and they can be disconnected or turned off when you are not doing video editing. External drives also have their own cooling system and power supply, so your PC doesn't have to work harder or hotter. Most of all, you don't have to worry about whats crammed inside your PC!! SCSI drives are also more reliable then EIDE and most SCSI drives come with a 5 year warranty, versus 1 or 2 years for most EIDE drives. SCSI drives spin at 10,000 or 15,000 RPM, so they are capable of higher sustained throughputs

this is assuming anyone wants to dig in and learn......