John Sayers
Solar Power!!
what do you guys know about SAWPLUS 32?
Sawplus
- Thread starter John Sayers
- Start date
I was looking around for alternatives to using Cakewalk last week. SAW has a hefty price tag, limits to 32 tracks, and their web page mentioned nothing about support for DirectX. Thats as much as I needed to see 
.
[This message has been edited by pglewis (edited 07-12-2000).]
. [This message has been edited by pglewis (edited 07-12-2000).]
actually, sawplus 32 supports both directx and vst. just one of the many reasons it's $1000. you can just download the demo at www.iqsoft.com and get the "real deal" and find out what it's really about. it's remarkably small (good programming?), and, as is obvious by the price, not for "Consumers". they do have a free demo video, though, which i ordered... this programming looks damn cool (haven't used it 
)
)Does it support DirectX effects on individual tracks? That is a must for me. A grand is waaaaaaay too much to spend without a real test drive. Their video produced by their marketing dept. doesn't mean squat... I have to use the thing. The 32 track limitation isn't very attractive for $1000, either! I'm sure it's great depending on what needs to be done, but I can't imagine forking out that cash and being disappointed yet again. I'm becoming a cynic after blowing dough on both Cake and Vegas and coming up way short of what I expected.
Okay, you have my interest, but I'm the eternal software skeptic right now .
#1) Vegas supports DirectX, but not as track effects. This one little caveat has made Vegas pretty much useless to me for a lot of situations. Does SAW support standard DirectX plug-ins as individual track effects? This is a very specific question, and I don't know the answer.
#2) The 32-track limit seriously concerns me. Why the limit? Why not support as much as the machine itself can handle? I can build a machine that can probably handle 64 dry tracks for the same amount of money they want for SAW! I can easily see using more than 32 tracks... not all of 'em all the way through a song, but I don't wanna have to do a bunch of off-line processing in order to keep working. Every time I think I have more tracks than I can possibly use effectively, I find a good reason to want more... and it's almost always "because it saves time".
I spent a grand on an analog mixer that has done a helluva job for over 2 years, and will probably continue to do a helluva job for a couple more. For the same price, SAW seems obsolete before I even install it. Close, but no cigar. There still is no really good PC multi-tracking software by my anal-retentive definitions.
. #1) Vegas supports DirectX, but not as track effects. This one little caveat has made Vegas pretty much useless to me for a lot of situations. Does SAW support standard DirectX plug-ins as individual track effects? This is a very specific question, and I don't know the answer.
#2) The 32-track limit seriously concerns me. Why the limit? Why not support as much as the machine itself can handle? I can build a machine that can probably handle 64 dry tracks for the same amount of money they want for SAW! I can easily see using more than 32 tracks... not all of 'em all the way through a song, but I don't wanna have to do a bunch of off-line processing in order to keep working. Every time I think I have more tracks than I can possibly use effectively, I find a good reason to want more... and it's almost always "because it saves time".
I spent a grand on an analog mixer that has done a helluva job for over 2 years, and will probably continue to do a helluva job for a couple more. For the same price, SAW seems obsolete before I even install it. Close, but no cigar. There still is no really good PC multi-tracking software by my anal-retentive definitions.
(1) yeah, you can put a directx or vst or their own plugin on any track and as many as you want, post or pre fader. you can do that in cakewalk. and cubase. and you can do that in vegas too (they have "assignable fx" which can easily function the same way, and if you download the demo like i did you'd know this). if you're so concerned, download the demo.
(2) you can use more than 32 tracks and you think spending $1k or so (actually that's sawPRO, sawplus is cheaper) is a lot? seems to me if you can assemble a computer that can handle 64 dry tracks (and are recording from multiple sources), you shouldn't have a problem shelling out for a good program.
on a sidenote, they are working at sawstudio which i think will have unlimited tracks.. why don't you just go to www.iqsoft.com and do your research. or cakewalk.com. or sonicfoundry.com. and download the demos they all offer..
(2) you can use more than 32 tracks and you think spending $1k or so (actually that's sawPRO, sawplus is cheaper) is a lot? seems to me if you can assemble a computer that can handle 64 dry tracks (and are recording from multiple sources), you shouldn't have a problem shelling out for a good program.
on a sidenote, they are working at sawstudio which i think will have unlimited tracks.. why don't you just go to www.iqsoft.com and do your research. or cakewalk.com. or sonicfoundry.com. and download the demos they all offer..
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>you can put a directx or vst or their own plugin on any track and as many as you want, post or pre fader. you can do that in cakewalk. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You cannot assign track effects post fader with Cakewalk. Pre-fader, only. Buss effects you can assign post-fader, but that is not the same thing. It makes you operate differently. Can you really assign track effects post-fader in SAW? Cubase is looking more attractive, but I hate dongles.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>and you can do that in vegas too (they have "assignable fx" which can easily function the same way, and if you download the demo like i did you'd know this)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I own Vegas. Assignable FX cannot easily function the same way. Simple scenario: I want 4 compressors, each with different parameters, as inserts on 2 voc tracks, a snare, and a kick. So I create 4 assignable effects busses, set each buss to pre-fader, set each tracks effect level sends to the correct buss, drop the main fader to zero, blah, blah, blah. Or... I can drop the damn compressors on the tracks and be done with it. Have you seriously tried to work this way?! Do you know how much it cuts into performance? What about trying to mix that way? This isn't anything exotic I'm trying to do.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>if you're so concerned, download the demo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>All IQS demos are non-expiring save-disabled programs. There is a one minute play/record limit on the main SAW program demos, and approximately one minute of active playback on the PlugIn demos.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ummm... exactly what could I demo under those circumstances? Can't save, and I've got a one minute limit on recording, playback, and plug-ins?!!!? Hardly worth the download time.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>you can use more than 32 tracks and you think spending $1k or so (actually that's sawPRO, sawplus is cheaper) is a lot? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm confident that it's a quality program. Too many evangalists for it not to be pretty good. But is it $900 better than N-Track? I don't know, 'cause N-Track's demo only allows plug-ins on the first track... all these useless demos. But I'm more willing to risk the price of N-Track without a decent demo than the price of SAW. I don't mind forking out for a good piece of software, but I can't accept many flaws for that asking price. A track limit is a serious flaw for $1000... I can get some decent gear for that money.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>on a sidenote, they are working at sawstudio which i think will have unlimited tracks.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'll keep my fingers crossed. I'm waiting for someone to blow me away. And believe me, I've been researching.
[This message has been edited by pglewis (edited 07-20-2000).]
You cannot assign track effects post fader with Cakewalk. Pre-fader, only. Buss effects you can assign post-fader, but that is not the same thing. It makes you operate differently. Can you really assign track effects post-fader in SAW? Cubase is looking more attractive, but I hate dongles.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>and you can do that in vegas too (they have "assignable fx" which can easily function the same way, and if you download the demo like i did you'd know this)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I own Vegas. Assignable FX cannot easily function the same way. Simple scenario: I want 4 compressors, each with different parameters, as inserts on 2 voc tracks, a snare, and a kick. So I create 4 assignable effects busses, set each buss to pre-fader, set each tracks effect level sends to the correct buss, drop the main fader to zero, blah, blah, blah. Or... I can drop the damn compressors on the tracks and be done with it. Have you seriously tried to work this way?! Do you know how much it cuts into performance? What about trying to mix that way? This isn't anything exotic I'm trying to do.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>if you're so concerned, download the demo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>All IQS demos are non-expiring save-disabled programs. There is a one minute play/record limit on the main SAW program demos, and approximately one minute of active playback on the PlugIn demos.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ummm... exactly what could I demo under those circumstances? Can't save, and I've got a one minute limit on recording, playback, and plug-ins?!!!? Hardly worth the download time.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>you can use more than 32 tracks and you think spending $1k or so (actually that's sawPRO, sawplus is cheaper) is a lot? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm confident that it's a quality program. Too many evangalists for it not to be pretty good. But is it $900 better than N-Track? I don't know, 'cause N-Track's demo only allows plug-ins on the first track... all these useless demos. But I'm more willing to risk the price of N-Track without a decent demo than the price of SAW. I don't mind forking out for a good piece of software, but I can't accept many flaws for that asking price. A track limit is a serious flaw for $1000... I can get some decent gear for that money.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>on a sidenote, they are working at sawstudio which i think will have unlimited tracks.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'll keep my fingers crossed. I'm waiting for someone to blow me away. And believe me, I've been researching.
[This message has been edited by pglewis (edited 07-20-2000).]
Shreadzilla
New member
Yo pglewis, hows it hangin?
I too am frustrated with the lack of PRO implementation of dx effects in VEGAS, but it seems that there may be some light at the end of the tunnel, the following is an excerpt from a disscusion at the S.F VEGAS forum where they are [hopefully] getting ready to release the 2.0 ver. upgrade- not "VEGAS-VIDEO", but the "AUDIO" update,etc.
If you havent checked out this site I would recommend it.
---------------------------------------------Ok - I will try my hand at this since I have been working pretty
heavily with the Beta for some time now and I'm mostly an audio user
like yourself:
The Obvious:
Envelopes:
- You can now lock envelopes to events (like in Acid, though
they don't exist exclusively WITHIN events). This allows you to move
events along with their respective envelopes without having to copy
eenvelope points.
- You can copy and pste envelopes. Plus there are some
enhancements to the "look and feel" of envelopes and how they the
points move.
- When you're in the "envelope tool", you can't move events.
So, it is now truly an envelope tool.
- You can now use the "V" key to show/hide the volume envelope
rather then having it remove the envelope altogether. Thanks!
FX:
- You can now use I think almost any DirectX effect on a
track as a real-time effect.
- You can now apply non-realtime effects to an event (i.e.
process an effect or group of effects on an event and have it appear
as a "take" within that event) Very handy.
Metronome:
- There is now a metronome feature which has both a built in
woodblock sound and an assignable option for playback and record with
a metronome. The Project Properties page controls the tempo. Very
cool.
Grouping:
- This has changed a bit. It no longer controls the selection
of events. When you click on a group it no longer selects all events
in that group. When you move a group, it just hightlights the group
with a darker blue line. When you just click an d drag a group by
selecting only one event in the group, that is the only event that
will move to a different track if you drag down or up. Grouping can
be done or undone with the G and U keys.
- There is a new feature called "Ignore Event Grouping" which
overrides all grouping and allows you to move things around and then
regroup those events in their new positions. Very handy, guys!
The Not-S
bvious:
Editing:
- There are some really nice new event editing controls.
I'll attach ana explanation given to me by SF:
Slip: Alt Slips media within an event (start
and end don't move)
Slip Trim: Alt Moves start or end time of event
and slips media along with edge
Trim Adjacent: Ctrl+Alt Trims start or end of event
simultaneously with end or start of adjacent event
Slide: Ctrl+Alt Simultaneously trims start and end
of event, leaving media "in place"
Slide Crossfade: Ctrl+Alt Slides auto-crossfade region
Move, Slip, and Slide are done inside an event.
Trim, Slip Trim, Trim Adjacent, and Stretch are done on an event edge.
Slide Crossfade is done inside or on the edge of a crossfade
Play around with those. They are very handy.
Recording:
- Please see my previous post on Punching In and
Punching Out. I think a lot of people have missed the felxibility
here...
- There is a new option in the Prefs which allows you to
turn off the "show waveforms" while recording. Psychologically this
can be helpful if you think it's using up CPU drawing the waveforms.
- There is a right-click menu on the track arm button
which allows you to setup your record inputs before you arm to record.
- There is now an option (default) to create a backup
project file called .veg.bak in case of a crash)
well, that's it for now. Back to work. Hope this helps.
Karl Caillouet wrote:
>>
>>I realize that this is a new product, but I would bet that many of
>>your customers purchase this version because of their past
>>association with VP.
>>
>>What I would like to see is more technical information in
>>the "readme.doc" file with regard to issues like the removal of the
>>meters under discussion and, in particular, what's new (difference
in
>>audio features from ver 1 in particular)and installation issues
with
>>older versions with regard to directories, plugins, whether to
>>uninstall the older version first, etc.
>>
>>IMO, the release notes now read more like additional marketing hype
>>for the Video side. Your user base is proabably a bit more
>>sophisticated in technical matters than the average software
>>purchaser and are more likely to read and benefit from a
more "under
>>the hood" approach to this information.
>>
>>On that subject, and I may have just missed it, where can we get
>>information and/or a list of exactly what new features and changes
>>are on the audio side?
[This message has been edited by Shreadzilla (edited 07-20-2000).]
I too am frustrated with the lack of PRO implementation of dx effects in VEGAS, but it seems that there may be some light at the end of the tunnel, the following is an excerpt from a disscusion at the S.F VEGAS forum where they are [hopefully] getting ready to release the 2.0 ver. upgrade- not "VEGAS-VIDEO", but the "AUDIO" update,etc.
If you havent checked out this site I would recommend it.
---------------------------------------------Ok - I will try my hand at this since I have been working pretty
heavily with the Beta for some time now and I'm mostly an audio user
like yourself:
The Obvious:
Envelopes:
- You can now lock envelopes to events (like in Acid, though
they don't exist exclusively WITHIN events). This allows you to move
events along with their respective envelopes without having to copy
eenvelope points.
- You can copy and pste envelopes. Plus there are some
enhancements to the "look and feel" of envelopes and how they the
points move.
- When you're in the "envelope tool", you can't move events.
So, it is now truly an envelope tool.
- You can now use the "V" key to show/hide the volume envelope
rather then having it remove the envelope altogether. Thanks!
FX:
- You can now use I think almost any DirectX effect on a
track as a real-time effect.
- You can now apply non-realtime effects to an event (i.e.
process an effect or group of effects on an event and have it appear
as a "take" within that event) Very handy.
Metronome:
- There is now a metronome feature which has both a built in
woodblock sound and an assignable option for playback and record with
a metronome. The Project Properties page controls the tempo. Very
cool.
Grouping:
- This has changed a bit. It no longer controls the selection
of events. When you click on a group it no longer selects all events
in that group. When you move a group, it just hightlights the group
with a darker blue line. When you just click an d drag a group by
selecting only one event in the group, that is the only event that
will move to a different track if you drag down or up. Grouping can
be done or undone with the G and U keys.
- There is a new feature called "Ignore Event Grouping" which
overrides all grouping and allows you to move things around and then
regroup those events in their new positions. Very handy, guys!
The Not-S
bvious:Editing:
- There are some really nice new event editing controls.
I'll attach ana explanation given to me by SF:
Slip: Alt Slips media within an event (start
and end don't move)
Slip Trim: Alt Moves start or end time of event
and slips media along with edge
Trim Adjacent: Ctrl+Alt Trims start or end of event
simultaneously with end or start of adjacent event
Slide: Ctrl+Alt Simultaneously trims start and end
of event, leaving media "in place"
Slide Crossfade: Ctrl+Alt Slides auto-crossfade region
Move, Slip, and Slide are done inside an event.
Trim, Slip Trim, Trim Adjacent, and Stretch are done on an event edge.
Slide Crossfade is done inside or on the edge of a crossfade
Play around with those. They are very handy.
Recording:
- Please see my previous post on Punching In and
Punching Out. I think a lot of people have missed the felxibility
here...
- There is a new option in the Prefs which allows you to
turn off the "show waveforms" while recording. Psychologically this
can be helpful if you think it's using up CPU drawing the waveforms.
- There is a right-click menu on the track arm button
which allows you to setup your record inputs before you arm to record.
- There is now an option (default) to create a backup
project file called .veg.bak in case of a crash)
well, that's it for now. Back to work. Hope this helps.
Karl Caillouet wrote:
>>
>>I realize that this is a new product, but I would bet that many of
>>your customers purchase this version because of their past
>>association with VP.
>>
>>What I would like to see is more technical information in
>>the "readme.doc" file with regard to issues like the removal of the
>>meters under discussion and, in particular, what's new (difference
in
>>audio features from ver 1 in particular)and installation issues
with
>>older versions with regard to directories, plugins, whether to
>>uninstall the older version first, etc.
>>
>>IMO, the release notes now read more like additional marketing hype
>>for the Video side. Your user base is proabably a bit more
>>sophisticated in technical matters than the average software
>>purchaser and are more likely to read and benefit from a
more "under
>>the hood" approach to this information.
>>
>>On that subject, and I may have just missed it, where can we get
>>information and/or a list of exactly what new features and changes
>>are on the audio side?
[This message has been edited by Shreadzilla (edited 07-20-2000).]
Totally appreciate that, Shred. The last catalog I got mentioned nothing about a Vegas Audio update... but pounded the hell outta marketing for Vegas Video. Their heavyweight video investors probably have something to do with that 
. I'll have to check out that forum. Again, thanks for the info. It sounds like they may improve everything I had gripes about. Now if only they'd release a 24-bit version of Sound Forge 
.
. I'll have to check out that forum. Again, thanks for the info. It sounds like they may improve everything I had gripes about. Now if only they'd release a 24-bit version of Sound Forge .