relationship between mixing desk busses and soundcard ins

karambos2

New member
Hi,

I don't understand the relationship between the busses on a mixing desk and the sound card. It seems to me that if you are using 8 microphones to record simultaneuosly and you wanted each of those microphone signals to be recorded on seperate tracks in the sequencer then obviously, you would need a soundcard with 8 ins.

The way I picture it is that in order to be able to control the levels, you would plug the microphones direct into the mixing desk and then connect the busses to the ins on the sound card.

However, if my mixing desk only has 4 busses, am I right in thinking that I can only record a maximum of 4 signals seperately and simultaneously? In other words, to be able to record 8 individual signals and have them record on 8 individual tracks in the sequencer, you have to have
a) a mixing desk with 8 busses
b) a sound card with 8 ins.

Am I also right in thinking that normally, you wouldn't plug the 8 microphones directly into the sound card? Because if you did, you have no way of controlling the input (apart from within the sequencer)?

And what happens when you want to record using more than 8 microphones at once?

I run LOGIC and have a 16 track mixing desk which has 4 busses. I want to be able to record a full drum kit so I'm looking into buying a soundcard like the Aardvark Q10 or Creamware Luna II or M-Audio 10-10 but I just don't know what I actually need until I find out how this whole thing works.

I'm grateful for any help

Karambos
 
For the most, you're correct in assuming that you need a separate bus for each of your soundcard's in. However, the easier (and usually sonically cleaner) method is to use your console's individual direct outs (or inserts) for input to the sound card.

For example, I have a Yamaha 12 channel, 2 bus mixer and a C-Port that has 8 analog inputs. I plug mics into the mixer and route each channel's direct out's to the C-Port, which allows me to record all 8 tracks at once. I use the gain knobs to adjust recording level, and the faders for the headphone mix (which allows me to route the sends to an effects unit to hear effects while I'm tracking but it leaves the recorded signal clean).

If your mixer doesn't have direct outs, I'd go the Q-10 route or get a different mixer.
 
further busses

hi Seanmorse79,

thanks for the reply. I do indeed have direct outs on the desk but I wasn't aware that I could control the recording levels with the gain knobs. I thought that direct out meant the signal goes into the desk and straight out again without going through any of the channels controls.

Also, what's the piont of having a desk with 8 busses in a big studio if you can just record using the direct outs? I mean most big studios have a huge Mackie desk (or whatever) with 8 or more busses. What's the point?

Thanks again for your time and input.

Karambos
 
The point is flexibility. With output busses you have the option of assigning multiple channel strips to the same buss. With direct outs it's a situation where you have one channel being able to be sent to the soundcard input. So you may be tracking a guitar with 2, 3 or more mics on the cabinet. Those, let's say 3 mics, can be blended to acheive jsut the right texture that you are searching for and then assigned to one buss and sent to one track on the tape, errr, I mean HD. Also with busses you COULD actually assign one channel strip to multiple busses. Direct outs are very handy too in that if you've got a signal coming in, there's a signal going directly out. You don't have to worry about assigning things or anything like that. If you don't have direct outs you could also even use your insert outputs to go into the soundcard input but that would rob you of the ability to patch compressors, equalizers, or effects into the signal chain. Of course you'd have to control input levels into the soundcard via the gain trim on the console and the input/output levels of whatever gear you are running through.
 
Just a small thing, you know a bus equals a stereo signal, so each bus actually has 2 mono tracks to it.. so a 4 buss console actually has 8 tracks ;-)

Porter
 
Seanmorse79 said:

For example, I have a Yamaha 12 channel, 2 bus mixer and a C-Port that has 8 analog inputs. I plug mics into the mixer and route each channel's direct out's to the C-Port, which allows me to record all 8 tracks at once. I use the gain knobs to adjust recording level, and the faders for the headphone mix (which allows me to route the sends to an effects unit to hear effects while I'm tracking but it leaves the recorded signal clean).


Seanmorse79 - which Yamaha mixer are you using?
Do you have 8 preamps?
Also can you select which channels go to the effects unit, or do they all have to go if you want to hear them in the headphones?

I'm considering getting an MG124 mixer to sit in front of my delta44
 
I'm using an old MC1202 - I just had to have analog VU's :)

The mixer has 12 built-in pre's and direct outs - I've changed my setup around a few times, but for now, I use channels 1-8 for direct out into the C-Port, and channels 9-10 for monitoring (routed back in from the PC).

And yes, you can select which channels go to the effects units and how much via the aux sends -pretty standard on most mixers. My 1202 has 3 aux sends, so I can patch in up to 3 separate effects units and adjust the amount of each effect via the channel's aux send knobs (I just use an old Midiverb for reverb & delay). Keep in mind, the effects units are only for monitoring while I'm tracking. The direct out sends the raw signal to the C-Port, right from the pre-amps - no eq stage, no effects, nothing but the raw signal, which is exactly how I wanted it.
 
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what's the delta 44 like?

@Bulls Hit - how do you rate the Delta 44?

Anyone got any opinion on the MOTU828 mkII?
Or the RME Multiface?

thx
 
Sometimes but not always...

Porter said:
Just a small thing, you know a bus equals a stereo signal, so each bus actually has 2 mono tracks to it.. so a 4 buss console actually has 8 tracks ;-)

Porter,
A STEREO buss equals a stereo signal but a group buss (or what was once known as a multitrack buss) does not. It is a single channel that is "bussed" to a track on the multitrack tape or track on the HDD. Unless your console is like no other I've ever seen your 4 busses have 1 output jack for each buss. The stereo buss is the signal that is sent from the console out to the monitors and also to your mixdown machine.

:)
 
Re: Sometimes but not always...

MikeA said:
Porter,
A STEREO buss equals a stereo signal but a group buss (or what was once known as a multitrack buss) does not. It is a single channel that is "bussed" to a track on the multitrack tape or track on the HDD. Unless your console is like no other I've ever seen your 4 busses have 1 output jack for each buss. The stereo buss is the signal that is sent from the console out to the monitors and also to your mixdown machine.

:)

Mike,

I know a guy whos is running Vegas and likes mixing through his Yamaha 02R96 or 03D consoles... He plays the tracks back through his ADat's (the day I was there he was mixing his big band and was only using 2) using light pipe from his computer. Each stereo channel had two mono tracks panned hard left and hard right giving him the 32 channels he needed to mix with... he recorded the band the week before using the Yamaha and the Adat's sending track to the L or R side of the bus... and I thought stereo bus would have 2 outputs, so if you have 4 busses you had 8 mono tracks??

Porter
 
Re: Re: Sometimes but not always...

Porter said:
Mike,

I know a guy whos is running Vegas and likes mixing through his Yamaha 02R96 or 03D consoles... He plays the tracks back through his ADat's (the day I was there he was mixing his big band and was only using 2) using light pipe from his computer. Each stereo channel had two mono tracks panned hard left and hard right giving him the 32 channels he needed to mix with... he recorded the band the week before using the Yamaha and the Adat's sending track to the L or R side of the bus... and I thought stereo bus would have 2 outputs, so if you have 4 busses you had 8 mono tracks??

Porter

They come both ways. The two ADATS get 16 mono's on two light pipes, but my Dakota/RME/sonar splits them into pairs: 1/2 L/R--7/8 L/R, but the Mackie 8-buss sub-groups are x-many chanels assigned to a mono out, or to one side (or both) of the 2-ch mix. On other mixers, the ch sub-buss assign is steered through a 2-ch buss with the chanel pan selecting L or R or blend.
Or something like that...:)
Wayne
 
Re: what's the delta 44 like?

karambos2 said:
@Bulls Hit - how do you rate the Delta 44?

I'm pretty happy with it so far.

I had absolutely no trouble installing it or loading the drivers (WIN98). I didn't even need to take out my old sound card - thought I might have interrupt conflicts, but no.

Once I profiled the card, Cakewalk GT Pro was immediately able to see the new inputs & outputs.

Once I bought a couple of 1/4" to RCA cables, I was able to hear through the monitors during both record and playback.

I managed to successfully fiddle with the supplied patchbay/router software so I can also playback mp3s etc thru Winamp. The patchbay/router stuff is not particularly intuitive to use, but it does seem very flexible.

I've test driven a recording of my kit using 1 mic in the bass drum and an overhead, and they successfully recorded onto 2 seperate tracks. I've just got to get a mixer now with some pres and I'll be set.

So yeah, very happy so far.
 
Uhhhhh...

Porter said:
Mike,

I know a guy whos is running Vegas and likes mixing through his Yamaha 02R96 or 03D consoles... He plays the tracks back through his ADat's (the day I was there he was mixing his big band and was only using 2) using light pipe from his computer. Each stereo channel had two mono tracks panned hard left and hard right giving him the 32 channels he needed to mix with... he recorded the band the week before using the Yamaha and the Adat's sending track to the L or R side of the bus... and I thought stereo bus would have 2 outputs, so if you have 4 busses you had 8 mono tracks??

Porter

OK. I'm an old fart (and feeling older the longer I hang around here) and I know analog signal flow inside and out and SOMETIMES this computer ^&*$ puts my head in a bigger whirl than the best skunkweed I ever had did. But I don't see how the math of this rig works. You said the guy has 2 ADATs. That's 2 X 8 which was 16 everywhere I went to school. Now, I agree with you that IF he did indeed have 16 STEREO channels he would have 32 tracks (that could be panned anywhere he wanted). Now, I almost mentioned this in one of my earlier posts but I think I've seen some software packages that only mix audio in stereo pairs. But you said he was using a Yamaha digital mixer so that wouldn't come into play. I just don't know where 2 ADATs could come up with 16 channels each. But then maybe its a relapse of the skunkweed... :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
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