Is it possible to record a rock record using midi/as a one man band?

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My big problem is the drums, specifically using midi or loops. These obviously tend to sound fake but also repetitive. Even if removing some quantization or adding off-ticks they don't sound right. The recordings sound robotic and lack feel, too repetitive, and it's hard to create or find the exact right beat to match songs.

Any opinions on trying to do this?

I am a bit discouraged. But one option is to record it all this way, then find a drummer to do real drums at a later time.

Obviously I know it is possible, but what I mean in the title is whether it is possible to make a good record like this. I realize artists like Beck have used program drums on rock records. But those songs are very simple. If the song is dynamic (think more like Smashing Pumpkins, Nirvana, etc) can you use midi, loops, or programmed drums? Or would you say an artist is better off stripping the songs down and just doing acoustic guitar?
 
Many of us are one man bands. It can be done. Now, how well, I think that involves a lot of knowledge, patience and effort.
 
Sure. It's just a lot of work to get it to sound good. "Perfection" has been the standard for rock drums for a while, so you can get away with that sounding very quantized. Depending on your arrangement, nobody really pays attention to the bass, so they won't notice if it sounds mechanical.
Guitars will be tough though. You need a good library for those.

Midi vocals are the hardest, but I assume that you're actually singing and not using Vocaloid.
 
Sure. It's just a lot of work to get it to sound good. "Perfection" has been the standard for rock drums for a while, so you can get away with that sounding very quantized. Depending on your arrangement, nobody really pays attention to the bass, so they won't notice if it sounds mechanical.
Guitars will be tough though. You need a good library for those.

Midi vocals are the hardest, but I assume that you're actually singing and not using Vocaloid.

I play guitar, bass, and vocals so those aren't an issue. Really I am just wondering about the drums. They sound mechanical, which I am not sure I like for rock music, since rock music tends to have a lot of dynamics, fills, tempo changes, etc.
For example, say the Beatles or Stones recorded using a drum machine...would the record sound weird? I think so.

I'm working on a new song and just discouraged. It sounds very stiff and "computery"...I guess worse case I can find someone to do real drums after.
 
Using midi instruments to mimic real musicians with real instruments does not work very well unless (a) the midi-controlled sounds are reasonably convincing to start with, and (b) you have some understanding of how the instrument is played.

For example, replicating a guitar lead break in midi requires you to know about a whole mess of guitar playing techniques, including bending notes, hammer-ons and vibrato, and how to replicate those techniques.

The same applies to midi drums.

The best thing to do is to listen closely to real drums and what a drummer does, then figure out how to replicate those fills and rhythms.

It is possible to get amazing results from just midi. There are midi files of Emerson, Lake & Palmer tracks that were programmed in consultation with Keith Emerson, and they are quite astonishing.
 
There is nothing wrong with MIDI, but remember that it's just how things communicate and nothing to do with how it sounds.

If you don't play 80s techno stuff, then drum loops are the absolute killer here. I assume you have a keyboard? Record the drums played live. Even a basic GM drum kit sounds so much better when it is played by hand. If you are not a proper drummer, then record kick and snare first, and stick to the basic rhythm. Then record the hi-hats, again, two fingers. Then add cymbals and finally toms. Don't worry if you play bum notes, just edit them in a visual editor that shows you the bar and beat lines. The most realistic drums will be where the timing stays regular but ISN'T exactly on the beat - drummers play around the beat, pushing one beat, delaying another a tiny bit. Kick drum tends to be more regular and nearer the beat line.

To mimic real instruments depends on the right sound source, but also how you play it. Things like pitchblende wheel data is often wrongly done. Think how a real guitarist plays. They can bend a note, then twang it and release, or then can twang it and bend, but if they slide down the fretboard, it is not a pitchblende, it's a sequence of individual, in tune notes. The same applies with bass.

Steve's comment on not listening to the bass is only half right. Nobody listens to the bass when it is playing properly. The minute you get it wrong, it is VERY obvious. I also think the bass needs playing, and not quantising to the beat, because real players are not time accurate, they, like drummers take liberties but they have to be musical ones.

If your keyboard skills are pants - then record the rhythm on one note to get the rhythms right, then go back and change the notes to the right ones.

What is absolutely certain is that if you are not musical, having a feel for how music is played, your tracks will be rubbish.
 
If your MIDI drums sound mechanical and repetitive, then remove the repeats, put some changes in. I hear (new) songs on the radio that are obviously MIDI drums and don't change at all during whole song sections.
 
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I think the OP is talking MIDI in the context of drums only, as far as I'm reading. In which case it's perfectly possible. You just need to learn how.

Here's a tip. Forget about "loops". Roll your own... learn how. It's drumming, not socket rurgery....:eek:
 
I know you guys said to avoid loops and drum using the keyboard pads, but how do you feel about the ezdrummer loops? I have heard some that sound quite good, and from what I read they have a "humanize function" that changes which samples are hit, so some snares timbres are different than others, for example.

Do you think using that as a foundation, then using a visual editor to move the snare hits slightly off the beat, slight volume changes in hits, and things like that, would be convincing?

Yes, the last post is right; it's only the drums I am concerned about. I can play the guitar well and keys and bass competently, and my girlfriend is quite a good singer. So it is just the drums we are fighting. As I add more instruments like bass, keys, and guitar, the entire song DOES feel more natural and takes away from the mechanical nature of the drums, but it still irks me for some reason. It's definitely the weak link. I've studied up on how to make midi more natural, but it still feels weird. I do think part of the problem is I don't know how to drum at all, so programming "fills" is nearly impossible for me. Does anyone have tips or know a good resource on how to program fills? Also things like rolls and ghost notes I find hard to program nicely.
 
I struggle on fills, too, as I'm not a drummer. Use the EZD fills, but you don't need to use the whole loop of one of them, just use part, and adjust some of the hits.
If you're using EZD2, you can drag the loop into the window, set it to loop-play then adjust each part for #of hits (you can hear the ghosts as they start being added in as the number of hits goes up), and can adjust velocity and pitch.
I use the Schwa humanizer in Reaper, rather than whatever EZD has built in, as I've found the EZD2 function to put everything off beat (not in a good way). The Schwa can be set for velocity and/or timing - if you set the parameters wide it sounds like a really drunk drummer, so just a slight variation is best.
 
I am with Mike on EZ's humanizer, it throws everything off for me. On the fills, I will use about 1/4 to 1/4 a measure's worth of fill just to tap me in for a change.
 
Just like you (and 99% of other members) I am a one-man-band too. I decided to quit bands decades ago just because I like to have TOTAL control over everything I do.

And just to illustrate it... when I started recording my first album a couple years ago and after almost 30 years of dreaming about this, I had my wife in the vocals because till then I didn't believe that I could sing. Well, after 4 tunes I decided to turn the album onto an EP and close the project because I couldn't support to have only ONE tune done each 3-4 months!

Please don't get me wrong, my wife sings very well and have an awesome voice. However once she is not a singer at heart she found all the reasons to NOT get close to the mike. So I had to bribe, menace, beg and cry to have her into my studio for 15 minutes and get the thing done. In the meantime my whole project simply remained stuck for months. So that's why I don't play with anyone else anymore.

:rolleyes:

But so, if you are not happy with the awesome job that a computer electronic drum can do, you have a couple ways to figure it out:

1) Get a real drummer - but then you won't be a one-man-band anymore though. I have found that ONE extra person in the band is enough to drive you crazy. So if you are keeping yourself alone in the project because it's hard to you to deal with it just think twice!

2) Buy a real drummer track and edit it to fit your requirements

3) Use a computer drum machine such as Addictive Drums and edit EVERY beat until you get that "human imperfection" you are looking for.

Anyway, this drum stuff is a very particular thing. Believe it or not, some people will notice that your drum track is being played by a computer no matter what. Some others will hear to a real drummer playing just to swear that it is an electronic drum. Others never will be able to tell the difference. And others simply won't care (I am in this group). Remember that mostly (and I mean it) of listeners won't "evaluate" such details of your tune. People are usually interested on ENJOY the tune instead.

As a listener myself, for ME the drums at a pop or rock tune are 'just the drums track' so I really don't care. For ME things just have to stick together, sound great and cause some emotion. But, if YOU care... well... as someone has told before, it is just a matter of a lot of time and effort until achieve the result YOU are happy with.

Finally, and not trying to rain on your parade, bear in mind that even working hard until you gett happy with the results it won't necessarily mean that you did the job. I have noticed that after to hear the same thing over and over and over again at certain point you get so used to it that your ears aren't trustful anymore. Also the power and the quality of a tune is in the overall stuff. All instruments need to be well played. Also the arrangement must be good. The mixing and the mastering too. And nothing will be enough if everything you have is a boring song.

I really wish you good luck!

:D
 
Thanks, guys, all good advice.

What is the issue with EZD humanize? I read that it only changes samples so the snare hits, for example, sound slightly different. This seems like it would be a good thing. From their site, it says that the humanize doesn't do anything with velocity or beat placement. I imagine those are done in the midi editor within the daw.
 
I honestly don't know what the EZD2 humanizer does in use, I have just seen everything go off beat wiht it - you say it only affects the 'sound' - how exactly? There's only two characteristics on the sound - pitch and velocity - besides timing.
 
I think an important key to making realistic midi drums is to play them in. Get a keyboard with good sensitivity and bash out a kick and snare, add a hi-hat, add the cymbals and toms. Then edit to where there are only four things going on at once. Your live performance will, in the long run, have more dynamics and sound different on the straight beats...because it WAS live. Add the human element and don't just drop midi notes on a screen all at 100 velocity and perfect timing. Just my 2c
 
I honestly don't know what the EZD2 humanizer does in use, I have just seen everything go off beat wiht it - you say it only affects the 'sound' - how exactly? There's only two characteristics on the sound - pitch and velocity - besides timing.

From what I read, humanizing will mix two or more samples of a drum hit (e.g. 4 different snare hits placed randomly, since a drummer doesn't hit the snare exactly the same place each time). This would affect timbre rather than pitch or velocity. I can only speak from what I read on their website. That's what they claim.
 
I always find this a bit strange! You want the drums to sound human, so you mess around with electronic ways to make it happen. Whatever happened to musicianship? If you are doing tracks, then find a drummer who has an electronic kit, get him to play to your click and the track and record what he plays via MIDI. If you can't play the piano, then EZ piano will solve that one, and EZ bass will do that - what is certain, 100% is that your results will be unmusical in the extreme. If you are a one man band, then the quality of your tracks is what you are judged on. If you cannot record thump/crack/thump thump/crack in time then that's a bit sad. I have to say that when I hear bad tracks, I get out as soon as possible because it's embarrassing. Auto company systems NEVER sound like a real player, unless they are programmed by a real player who understands what is going on.
 
I always find this a bit strange! You want the drums to sound human, so you mess around with electronic ways to make it happen. Whatever happened to musicianship? If you are doing tracks, then find a drummer who has an electronic kit, get him to play to your click and the track and record what he plays via MIDI. If you can't play the piano, then EZ piano will solve that one, and EZ bass will do that - what is certain, 100% is that your results will be unmusical in the extreme. If you are a one man band, then the quality of your tracks is what you are judged on. If you cannot record thump/crack/thump thump/crack in time then that's a bit sad. I have to say that when I hear bad tracks, I get out as soon as possible because it's embarrassing. Auto company systems NEVER sound like a real player, unless they are programmed by a real player who understands what is going on.

Not really sure what you've added to this thread, but by your tone you must have several hit records. Can we hear them?
 
I've made some good recordings using wavs of drum loops, like Beta Monkey and Mick Fleetwood's Total Drumming,
Some songs you know made with drum loops:
Rhiannon by Fleetwood Mac
You got Lucky by Tom petty
Heart of the Matter by Don Henley
quite a bit of The traveling wilburys and alot of stuff produced by Jeff Lynne
you have to remember when you construct a track from drum loops ,you kknow they are loops and you think its too perfect and everyone will know but thats not how people listen to music ,look at the big picture, and if you could get your live drummer to play a track like that you wouldnt be telling him to play it a little sloppier, you would happy as shit
 
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