Is it possible to record a rock record using midi/as a one man band?

Realistic drum tracks CAN be programmed and don't HAVE to be played.

BUT.....you have to understand how a drummer plays. That includes variations in velocity, understanding things like ghost notes, and just generally knowing what a drummer would do to make it sound realistic. Don't listen to anyone on a ridiculous rant on his high horse saying basically nothing that's relevant. Some people have no choice and no access to a real drummer and have to work with what they have. It can be done, I've heard some pretty good programmed drums. I used MIDI for years when I lived in an apartment and couldn't drum. Is it better to have a real drummer? Of course it is (if he's any good). But you can still do it, you just have to take the time to learn how to program the way a real drummer would play.
 
4tracker said:
Not really sure what you've added to this thread, but by your tone you must have several hit records. Can we hear them?
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What I have added is my assertion that while some music works brilliantly with loops - 80s pop, for instance, plus of course every dance track ever made, that kind of music is not intended to sound like real players. The OP wants to make rock music, and real drummers do not play like loops. In fact, I can manage most styles, but I personally can't do jazz drumming. It's too timing sensitive, little pushes and pulls. Most musicians can detect loops very easily. Non-Musicians don't know what to look for.

This is my addition to the thread. Sorry of my tone offends - but part of my job is to manage real musicians, and there is a huge push to replace them with tracks, and the tracks have to be good. Sadly, so many are not good, and very 'mechanical'.

In Music Technology exams, loops are not received that well - because one of the aims is realism. No idea why you assume I create hit records, but if theatre/live event tracks are your thing - then you'll know what I do. You can synthesise the playing of many instruments quite well, but If I play a real drum kit, then a real drummer can tell I am not a drummer. If this subtle timing can be heard and detected by somebody who knows, then I don't call it good. In my case, I'd simply get a drummer to play it - as I said. I don't do dance music, so loops for me can't be used without loads of work, because in my work area, humans originally played it - which isn't the case with dance music and 80s pop - because machines were used for real!
 
slug said:
you have to remember when you construct a track from drum loops ,you kknow they are loops and you think its too perfect and everyone will know but thats not how people listen to music ,look at the big picture, and if you could get your live drummer to play a track like that you wouldnt be telling him to play it a little sloppier, you would happy as shit
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Great points, Slug.
 
RAMI said:
Realistic drum tracks CAN be programmed and don't HAVE to be played.

BUT.....you have to understand how a drummer plays. That includes variations in velocity, understanding things like ghost notes, and just generally knowing what a drummer would do to make it sound realistic. Don't listen to anyone on a ridiculous rant on his high horse saying basically nothing that's relevant. Some people have no choice and no access to a real drummer and have to work with what they have. It can be done, I've heard some pretty good programmed drums. I used MIDI for years when I lived in an apartment and couldn't drum. Is it better to have a real drummer? Of course it is (if he's any good). But you can still do it, you just have to take the time to learn how to program the way a real drummer would play.
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What is the best resource on how to learn how to program realistic fills? Fills, ghost notes, and these types of things seem to be what I am struggling with. The basic backbeat is pretty easy to program. Are there definitive books or tutorials on this subject?

Yeah, I live in an apt, and I don't have access to a drummer I like (I do know a drummer from the band "The Frogs", love his drumming, and worked with him in the past...we're trying to do a long distance collaboration). The problem is he isn't very astute with DAWs. So for now I'm just trying to program the best I can; then maybe have him drum to the midi/click down the road. I just wish I could get the fills, rolls, ghost notes, and all these sounding better...
 
rob aylestone said:
What I have added is my assertion that while some music works brilliantly with loops - 80s pop, for instance, plus of course every dance track ever made, that kind of music is not intended to sound like real players. The OP wants to make rock music, and real drummers do not play like loops. In fact, I can manage most styles, but I personally can't do jazz drumming. It's too timing sensitive, little pushes and pulls. Most musicians can detect loops very easily. Non-Musicians don't know what to look for.

This is my addition to the thread. Sorry of my tone offends - but part of my job is to manage real musicians, and there is a huge push to replace them with tracks, and the tracks have to be good. Sadly, so many are not good, and very 'mechanical'.

In Music Technology exams, loops are not received that well - because one of the aims is realism. No idea why you assume I create hit records, but if theatre/live event tracks are your thing - then you'll know what I do. You can synthesise the playing of many instruments quite well, but If I play a real drum kit, then a real drummer can tell I am not a drummer. If this subtle timing can be heard and detected by somebody who knows, then I don't call it good. In my case, I'd simply get a drummer to play it - as I said. I don't do dance music, so loops for me can't be used without loads of work, because in my work area, humans originally played it - which isn't the case with dance music and 80s pop - because machines were used for real!
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I don't know...while I agree with your overall point that real drums are better than a machine, I'm not sure I agree that drum machine is only good for dance music or 80s pop. Beck used drum machine quite well for folk/rock songs. I'm sure there are many other bands who have, too. I think this is a chicken/egg scenario. i.e. do you think they're only good for dance/80s music because that's what they have been used for, or are they used for dance/80s music because that's those are genres they're commonly used? Who knows. But I have a feeling if a rock band pushed the limits of midi drumming and put out a record using only midi, everyone would cite and quote that record. Just how everyone cites "Nebraska" when discussing whether it's possible to make a hit record on 4-track. It just takes one person to do it; then people change their minds. I'm still unsure if it's possible to make a fully programmed rock record that sounds great, but I haven't closed my mind to it like you have. I'm discouraged by the sounds, but I have hope that with more information (such as how to program better fills) I can get better sounds.

As Slug pointed out above, people love human drummers who sound like machines. Eg. Neal Peart...that guy is a robot, yet drummers cite him as one of the best. So I think this stigma with drum machines is a weird thing...it might just be a reason for musicians to be snobs rather than have merit, the more I think about it.
 
Of course , in my situation I am talking about using drum loop wav files which are actual recorded live drums, not using midi which is what your original question asked. And sorry to get off topic but whenever I hear the phrase "one man band" my mind always conjures up pictures of a guy with an accordian, a bass drum on his back, cymbals between his knees and a harmonica.
 
slug said:
Of course , in my situation I am talking about using drum loop wav files which are actual recorded live drums, not using midi which is what your original question asked. And sorry to get off topic but whenever I hear the phrase "one man band" my mind always conjures up pictures of a guy with an accordian, a bass drum on his back, cymbals between his knees and a harmonica.
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But something like EZdrummer using .wavs of actual live drums, yet they can be placed into a midi editor. I was eying that. I also purchased some live drum packages off ebay. So I think we're talking about the same thing.
 
There is a HUGE difference between a sloppy drummer and a tight drummer. Ask any musician who has had to play for one of the samplers on the market and they'll tell you how hard it is to be totally metronomic, so the user can add the syncopation and tricks themselves. Phil Collins is a good example of merging real drums with patterns in his songs - but the machines are meant to sound like they do. Tight drummers are not absolute in their timing. I see no difference from recorded drums used in a loop and synthesised drums - you like the sound, or not. MIDI is irrelevant as it is simply a communication protocol, and so often used to describe something bad - shame about the track but they were obviously MIDI drums! I hear this so often, and it's like blaming the use of English for delivering bad news. Bad news is still bad in French, or spoken or written down. MIDI timing can be an occasional issue, but it's usually better than the player.

I can't believe anyone who has played in a live band believes that a real drummer can be replaced with loops without huge amounts of time being wasted on the timeline, shifting that downbeat just a tad forwards, or pushing the entry into the chorus?

I spend loads of time on production tracks, and tempo mapping is an essential thing if you want the feel of the real song - and the tempo pushes and pulls all over the place, the timing swings and most importantly, the loudness of each individual hit is different for a real drummer - doing this with loops is like having teeth pulled out.

I assumed the title meant is it possible to make what sounds like a live rock band? The answer is yes. Loops will work, but just not have the feel - and has anyone finished a track with loops where the drummer does the usual going round the kit forever, while the band wait for that final, final, downbeat!

I have no issue with using loops for songs that used them in the studio, or even live - but I just don't believe they work for a typical rock song. At least, not if you want to sound 'real'.

If people need proof, and have a real, good drummer available with a MIDI kit - record it and look at the data. When they get in a groove, and play really well against a fixed metronome, you can see all the subtle stuff happening and it sounds really tight - but it isn't. Work out how to replicate that with loops and samples and you will sell millions. Some of the good drum software is getting close, but it's not there yet.

Most music consumers can't tell good from bad - and neither can some music producers - look at the wonderfully dire .mid tracks on the net. The real question should be what do other musicians think, not the public. I for one would really hate a fellow musician saying it was naff, even if loads of non-musicians loved it.

The scariest thing when you play festivals with other decent bands is when you spot the guy from the previous or next band watching you, knowing every little timing slip or bum note will be noticed, even if a sea of faces all leap about and think it great. That one person does it for me.
 
EDIT: Censoring myself. My comment wasn't appropriate, even if I disagree with everything that was said.
 
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Well I guess that rather sums you up - you can do the same thing in so few words. Insult someone who cares, because frankly, I would rather have an idiot talk to me than you!
 
When you can't get a real drummer to lay down tracks for you, you can't drum yourself, for varying reasons, then EZD is a great alternative. But even with the humanize feature and 1, 2 or 4 measure-long files, they can still sound repetitive and mechanical. And most times, the fills just aren't exactly what you want. They best way is to drag all the files you want into your song and get it set up using the canned grooves. Then go into the editor and edit!! Every hit if necessary. It is time consuming, but it is worth it. For me it is one of the best parts of putting together a song.

I don't recommend constructing your own midi files/groove files/etc on your own from ground up. The canned files in EZD are a great place to start and will have enough variation already built in that you don't need to edit every hit. But I do consider the canned groove files to be a starting place and not the final drum track.

Hope this helps.
 
Chili said:
When you can't get a real drummer to lay down tracks for you, you can't drum yourself, for varying reasons, then EZD is a great alternative. But even with the humanize feature and 1, 2 or 4 measure-long files, they can still sound repetitive and mechanical. And most times, the fills just aren't exactly what you want. They best way is to drag all the files you want into your song and get it set up using the canned grooves. Then go into the editor and edit!! Every hit if necessary. It is time consuming, but it is worth it. For me it is one of the best parts of putting together a song.

I don't recommend constructing your own midi files/groove files/etc on your own from ground up. The canned files in EZD are a great place to start and will have enough variation already built in that you don't need to edit every hit. But I do consider the canned groove files to be a starting place and not the final drum track.

Hope this helps.
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Cool, thanks.
 
I've been programming drums for 25 years ,the first 15 using an Alesis HR16, the rest using samples and the midi editing of whatever recording software I've been using, Ntrack at first, then Reaper.
I just let the song unfold, and don't worry about the relative realism. Any realism that might come across is because I succeed in getting across what I hear for the part. Sometimes, what I hear for the part is something more syncopated and non realistic. Depends on the song.
My advice is...don't over think it.Just try to get the part into the audio world.
 
beezelbubba said:
I've been programming drums for 25 years ,the first 15 using an Alesis HR16, the rest using samples and the midi editing of whatever recording software I've been using, Ntrack at first, then Reaper.
I just let the song unfold, and don't worry about the relative realism. Any realism that might come across is because I succeed in getting across what I hear for the part. Sometimes, what I hear for the part is something more syncopated and non realistic. Depends on the song.
My advice is...don't over think it.Just try to get the part into the audio world.
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Also great points.

We're in the era of "everything must be perfect" with auto tune and all the other digital tools. I grew up in the lo-fi era (also recorded demos using an Alesis SR-16), yet I'm falling victim to this idea music must be perfect. It shouldn't be, really. Thanks for the reminder. It' so easy to get trapped into the minutia given all the options now.
 
Considering the time and effort needed to learn how to do something that will give mediocre results at best, why not just get someone to track some drums for you? There are some damned good drummers hanging around here who have the means to do quality recording. It may cost you a few bucks, but might be worth looking into.
 
The best advice I seen in the latest four pages was that not being a drummer yourself, you should NOT try to build your own patterns from scratch because they will sound like anything but a drummer. Just use off-the-shelf patterns instead.

Current digital drums packages comes with tons of beats and fills played by professional drummers. Aside the fact these patterns are tick perfect they also possess all that nuances that only a real experienced drummer could do, for example, snare ghost notes.

I don't know about EZD but I use Addictive Drums 2 and it is simply awesome. Basically it is only a matter of pick a few patterns that fits your tune, stuff it with fills that match, make a couple adjustments and put small variations here and there.

One thing that is important to be mentioned (and I see a lot of people making this mistake) is to pay attention with fill-ins superposed onto patterns. It will make your "drummer" to look like as if he had four arms by rolling the toms while keep banging the hi-hat and the snare. I have goofed about this myself some times too and it HAS to be fixed. By "fixed" I mean to remove the hi-hats, cymbals and whatever is conducting the rhythm along the rolls.

:)
 
4tracker said:
We're in the era of "everything must be perfect" with auto tune and all the other digital tools.
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It makes me think that being in an era that everything has to be perfect sometimes we see people trying to add some imperfection into the perfection of a machine beat to make it sounds yet more perfectly! That's crazy!

:D
 
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