PC vs. Mac (hahaha)
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Steenamaroo
...
awdur
New member
Well, actually I didn't... As the lazy person I am, all I looked until now were the brand new Macs, hehe.
This one looks like a good deal... Maybe when I have more cash I'll buy one. Thanks for the tip.
fetuslasvegas
Señor Member
Just some posts from our own forum regarding the durability, ease of use, and superior quality of PCs:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...dnt-[pro-tools-le-windows-8-16gb-ram]-353733/
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...ng-computers/going-crazy-over-latency-353085/
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...g-computers/pc-recording-setup-issues-353661/
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...e-screen-error-irql_not_less_or_equal-353436/
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...ve-problems-focusrite-scarlett-series-353547/
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...audio-asio-driver-clipping-cubase-5-a-353563/
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...-computers/big-latency-problem-cubase-111450/
These are just from the last 6 days... All PCs, not one Mac... They sound like pretty reliable machines. And now I am taking back what I said earlier!! If there are any noobs trolling this thread that are easily enough swayed to go get a Mac just because I say so, then do it. Don't get a new one, pick one up for second hand. You can get one for waaaaaaay less than one of these PCs, which I'm now convinced stands for ProblemComputer... You can spend your time recording instead of on forums trying to figure out why none of your gear works with your PC.
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...dnt-[pro-tools-le-windows-8-16gb-ram]-353733/
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...ng-computers/going-crazy-over-latency-353085/
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...g-computers/pc-recording-setup-issues-353661/
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...e-screen-error-irql_not_less_or_equal-353436/
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...ve-problems-focusrite-scarlett-series-353547/
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...audio-asio-driver-clipping-cubase-5-a-353563/
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...-computers/big-latency-problem-cubase-111450/
These are just from the last 6 days... All PCs, not one Mac... They sound like pretty reliable machines. And now I am taking back what I said earlier!! If there are any noobs trolling this thread that are easily enough swayed to go get a Mac just because I say so, then do it. Don't get a new one, pick one up for second hand. You can get one for waaaaaaay less than one of these PCs, which I'm now convinced stands for ProblemComputer... You can spend your time recording instead of on forums trying to figure out why none of your gear works with your PC.
Mo Facta
Farts of Nature
In what way? My analogy is perfectly sound. You said that a user should be allowed to be ignorant. I was merely shifting "the user" to another machine - a car.
Ok, let's change the outcome of my analogy. The user drives the car, but fails to maintain the oil, the water, break pads, and filters. Is it a surprise when the car fails? Should the user still be allowed to be ignorant?
Using any machine comes with a certain responsibility on the user. Ignorant users should not have a place in using sophisticated machines. At least SOME education is required.
Cheers
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
I had a quick look and was amused to find that your very first example was somebody who had upgraded their version of Windows to one not yet supported by Protools.
Have you honestly never seen the chaos that ensues every time Apple release their latest big cat? It takes months before every DAW manufacturer caters for the new Apple OS--and even longer before every hardware company releases drivers for the new OS.
The other thing to consider is that Window's based computers represent 88% of the market while Macs are only 12%. That means a ratio of 9 PC queries for every 1 Mac query says nothing about the relative reliability--it just reflects the number of machines out there.
The bottom line is that either can work fine. I use Windows at home and the theatre where I work sometimes uses Mac for playback. I've not found one to be more reliable or stable than the other.
MrWrenchey
New member
That's just my favorite when someone links to a website/webpage without reading the content first...
If it weren't so late, I'd debunk his comment on "server-grade" vs "consumer-grade" and their relative costs, but it's late and I have audio classes in the morning... If I get bored tomorrow, maybe I'll come back.
jonny deep
Disappointing Member
How is that possible? Do you think the Apple logo makes the computer go faster? Given the same parts, it will run the same. A Mac is just a PC nowadays, they use the same parts you can buy from Amazon or Newegg or wherever. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
Overclocking via frequency muiltiplier doesn't reduce CPU lifetime, as long as you maintain acceptable operating temperature. It's messing with voltages that will kill a CPU, but it will still outlast the other parts of the PC (unless the changes made are too wild), and by then a replacement will be so cheap it won't matter (plus you're more likely to have upgraded by then anyway).
My 64-bit, 4 core, 16GB RAM Hackintosh scored 15074 on Geekbench when I ran it. That's higher than all the mid-2010 8 core Intel Xeon E5620 2400 MHz Mac Pros listed on the Geekbench website (model:"Mac Pro (Mid 2010)" platform:"Mac" processor:"Intel Xeon E5620" frequency:2400 bits:64) - Geekbench Search - Geekbench Browser and is similar to the six core Intel Xeon W3680 3330 MHz 2010 Mac Pros (model:"Mac Pro (Mid 2010)" platform:"Mac" processor:"Intel Xeon W3680" frequency:3330 bits:64) - Geekbench Search - Geekbench Browser. The latter generally has higher scores, but it has two more cores (4 more threads) and double the RAM, in the systems I inspected in more detail.
Looking at the numbers, it seems to me, that I'm getting a bit more juice out of my spec than the 2010 Mac Pros, probably due to my processor (Intel 2600K) being newer and running at 4.2GHz. So, overall I think that my Hackintosh is pretty consistent with real Mac performance - unsurprising as they're built with the same standard parts. My Hackintosh cost around £800 to build - the closest spec I could make at the time was around £2,000 from Apple, IIRC.
I wasn't building a PC to match the Mac Pro - the later ones have two (or more?) 6-core Xeon processors in - there's no reason to compete with that for a single processor DAW machine, but I could do it for way cheaper than Apple sell them for.
I'm not trying to argue which is better. One may be better suited to a particular person. I used to have Mac OS X and Windows 7 on the same machine (my first experience of OS X), but I found I prefer Windows, so I wiped the OS X partition. Windows 7 serves me very well and I have no problems with it.
fetuslasvegas
Señor Member
I'm amused to find that because 1 out of the 7 examples I posted from the last 6 days has to do with someone who didn't read the system requirements info on software they installed disqualifies the other 86% If I were to just start making up figures, that means that 2% of the PC crowd aren't having problems with their machines... I'm willing to extend you a very minimal amount of credibility if you can site your figures to a reliable source. Besides the statement is so ambiguous it is clear that it's made up from the get go. What market? World computer market, professional computer recording market, at home hobby recording market, Queensland just upset and argumentative market?
To address the OS upgrade situation, you come to post that 86% of the links I posted are invalid due to 14% of them being a user error/upgrade issue. Then bring up that everything doesn't work immediately when a new Apple OS drops.... Um, no shit... of course it is going to take some time for non Apple software and hardware manufacturers to get their products working with the new OS. That is why I waited till last week to upgrade to Mountain Lion, I did my research and waited until everything I used was stable with the new OS before upgrading, WOW what a concept!!
You are right saying either one CAN work fine, it should be left at that, but someone else is going to come along with their fake statistics and no real world support for their statements and keep this going...
fetuslasvegas
Señor Member
Just to be sure I'm understanding you, you are going to 'debunk' the FACT that server grade components cost more than consumer grade components, please do get bored!! I have to clock my 8 hours tomorrow in corporate land and surely could use a hearty laugh when I get home. Can't wait.
'There is no fool more ignorant, than the fool who will argue facts.'
fetuslasvegas
Señor Member
For the first part you are misunderstanding, you took that quote out of context and it is making it confusing. What I was saying was, a latest production MacPro 8 core (2010) given the same amount of ram and the luxury of liquid cooling like the hack had will put up different numbers, better numbers than the hack... I was not saying with the SAME EXACT EQUIPMENT, just a production 2010 MP 8 core vs. the previously featured hack. The hack posted 17k which is on par with a 07-09 production 3.2GHz 8 core with the same ram and SSD/HDDs as the hack, that is all.
Those are some impressive numbers your hack is putting up. As for the price difference you are after all comparing a production Mac to a homebuilt hack (Mac). I am glad you were able to put your hack together for cheaper than a production Mac putting up similar numbers, that is the point of a home build... I'm glad you are having a solid experience with windows on your hack, I hope it stays reliable for you!!
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Okay, if you want to get into it...
Four of your other "examples" involved trouble (latency and drop outs) with the Focusrite Scarlett interface. Guess what? If you got to the Apple Support Communities, they have a two page thread about Mac users having EXACTLY the same problem, including Focusrite acknowledging the issue and offering a suggested fix. Check HERE if you don't believe me.
On a general Google search for "Problems using Macs for audio" I received 393,000,000 hits. No, I haven't read them all but they seem to span the same range of things as Windows queries. I'm a regular over on the Adobe Audition User Forums and there's certainly no shortage of Mac-based queries. If anything, we get more than we should expect considering the relatively small user base out of machines out there.
Speaking of which, my figure of 12% of computers in use being Apple came after some Googling. Figures ranged from 9% to 15% but several sites (and the most recently dated ones) mentioned the 12% figure so I used it. Note that this figure is for desktops and laptops; tablets are not included. Some of the sites I mentioned were the US market, others were the world market but differences were relatively small. Here's a chart from the OSX Daily website giving individual stats for every world region. It's about the most "pro mac" of all the sets of numbers I found:
Anyway, I hope you're not going to try and tell us that the Apple market penetration is anywhere near that of Windows?
Regarding upgrades, it's rather disingenuous of you to criticise Windows for upgrade related problems then admit that you deliberately put off upgrades to avoid exactly the same sort of problems on Mac.
To end with my own experience of using Windows based computers, prior to retirement I was Vice President Technical Operations and Engineering for a TV and Audio facility in London. We had three studios, 16 non linear edit suites, a radio news operation with 18 software "seats", a main newsroom with approximately 35 computers plus all the usual office machines. All together, we had just under 400 computers if you include servers. Every one was a Windows based machine.
Even with that number we had practically no software-based issues. Our IT and maintenance department were far more likely to be swapping faulty monitors or working on the TV equipment that worked alongside the computers. FYI, we depreciated out computers over a five year service life and managed to get away with this.
jonny deep
Disappointing Member
For the first part you are misunderstanding, you took that quote out of context and it is making it confusing. What I was saying was, a latest production MacPro 8 core (2010) given the same amount of ram and the luxury of liquid cooling like the hack had will put up different numbers, better numbers than the hack... I was not saying with the SAME EXACT EQUIPMENT, just a production 2010 MP 8 core vs. the previously featured hack. The hack posted 17k which is on par with a 07-09 production 3.2GHz 8 core with the same ram and SSD/HDDs as the hack, that is all.
Those are some impressive numbers your hack is putting up. As for the price difference you are after all comparing a production Mac to a homebuilt hack (Mac). I am glad you were able to put your hack together for cheaper than a production Mac putting up similar numbers, that is the point of a home build... I'm glad you are having a solid experience with windows on your hack, I hope it stays reliable for you!!
Yes, but earlier you said this: -
My post illustrates how this isn't true.
Steenamaroo
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In what way? My analogy is perfectly sound.
Cheers
It doesn't work on any level.
You are required to train and pass a test in order to own a license to drive a car, which you still cannot do legally until you have paid for insurance.
How is that like using a computer?
All the adverts on TV for PC user magazines etc talking about how computing can be simple?
all the community college night classes aimed at pensioners?
The fact that they are used in schools?
It's not the same at all.
Using a computer incorrectly isn't likely to endanger life either.
When I recommend someone buy a mac I never see it again.
Broadly speaking a mac permits the user to be ignorant. I bet at least 9 out of 10 casual mac users don't know there's an equivalent to control-alt-delete........Seriously. I bet they have never seen the words 'failed to respond', and have never accepted turning it off and on again and acceptable troubleshooting.
I'm all for PCs in the right hands and I get that mac or PC can break anytime....That's life.
I agree that you can build your dream machine and it'll be amazing and cheaper and what not. I've been there.
Average Jo needs a mac though, IMO.
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Steenamaroo
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To be honest, you're kinda helping my point.
All that stuff seems to apply to microsoft OSs. Apparently you do need a good understanding of computers to work one.
My point is that it doesn't seem to apple to OSX, at least not on th same level.
I've converted maybe five or six people to apple recenty (all computer dummies) and I'll never see them again, at least not about fixing computers. When they ran windows setups I was sick of them.
Analogy still sucks though.
You're taught all that maintenance stuff in your legally required training.
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kcearl
I see deaf people
Lol.....
I have an imac, Air, MBP (or did until recently), and two ipads...other than the ipads i disagree with your statement...they are not better than Pcs, theyre more expensive to buy and to upgrade, and perform no better...
I would not recommend a mac over a PC
kcearl
I see deaf people
To be honest, you're kinda helping my point.
All that stuff seems to apply to microsoft OSs. Apparently you do need a good understanding of computers to work one.
My point is that it doesn't seem to apple to OSX, at least not on th same level.
I've converted maybe five or six people to apple recenty (all computer dummies) and I'll never see them again, at least not about fixing computers. When they ran windows setups I was sick of them.
Analogy still sucks though.
You're taught all that maintenance stuff in your legally required training.
I find OSX a far less intuitive than Win 7
Take, for example, adding a preset pack to a softsynth...windows: documents > synth > presets...on the MAC i tried under audio, library, support...eventually i had to google it
Flei
New member
Man, this is a fun thread to read. Lots of Hater-ade drinkers. ;-)
I'll give my perspective: I've been in the IT industry for over 10 years, and I've owned, used, and supported both Mac's and PC's. IMO, it's a fun, but nonsensical to debate the PC vs Mac from a hardware perspective. The PC will always win, simply because you can "out-build" whatever the specs are for the current Mac's (or really any other preassembled brand name box). Mac's use high quality components, so you really can't knock them there. Not all PC's are made with high quality components - but if you're trying to compare a cheaply made PC to a high end Mac, that's not a fair fight.
To me the difference comes down to the overall philosophy that Apple has compared to the rest of the PC industry. The same argument can be made between iPhones and Android phones. Mac OS developers try to anticipate everything that a user would want to do, and then try to design a simple, elegant solution for it. That is very appealing to a number of people who just want to focus on task "x" (music/video creation, etc...) and not have to think about anything “overly technical”. That doesn't make them a dumb user (debatable). The problem is that as successful as Apple is with this strategy, it will never truly succeed. They simply can't anticipate what everybody wants or will need. That is where PC's come into play.
I can do whatever I want/know how to do on a PC both from a hardware and software perspective. If I want to swap my motherboard, upgrade my processor, and keep my hard drives - I can. The key is that I have the knowledge to do that - not everybody does. Just because you can make music on your computer, doesn't mean you know how to (or even want to know how to) upgrade or repair that computer. I have found that the geekier people love their PC's, and the more artsy people love their Mac's. I respect the Mac for its quality, but I prefer the PC for its freedom.
One last thing (I can't believe you're still reading...)
People can say what they want about needing a dedicated PC, but unless you are doing this as your 8 to 5, you don't. I have a Dell laptop with 4GB of memory. It's not exactly the ideal choice for music (I mainly just use it when I travel). I can run everything (sessions with lots of VST's, plugins, etc...) with no lag or hiccups. I never turn off my antivirus (but I also don't use a bloated program like Norton or McAfee), Wi-Fi, or anything. If you have to do all of that just to make some music, your PC, Mac, or whatever needs an upgrade. Lastly, for full disclosure, I do in fact have a dedicated music PC which is my main workhorse. The point is you don't need one (but it is great to have) ;-)
I'll give my perspective: I've been in the IT industry for over 10 years, and I've owned, used, and supported both Mac's and PC's. IMO, it's a fun, but nonsensical to debate the PC vs Mac from a hardware perspective. The PC will always win, simply because you can "out-build" whatever the specs are for the current Mac's (or really any other preassembled brand name box). Mac's use high quality components, so you really can't knock them there. Not all PC's are made with high quality components - but if you're trying to compare a cheaply made PC to a high end Mac, that's not a fair fight.
To me the difference comes down to the overall philosophy that Apple has compared to the rest of the PC industry. The same argument can be made between iPhones and Android phones. Mac OS developers try to anticipate everything that a user would want to do, and then try to design a simple, elegant solution for it. That is very appealing to a number of people who just want to focus on task "x" (music/video creation, etc...) and not have to think about anything “overly technical”. That doesn't make them a dumb user (debatable). The problem is that as successful as Apple is with this strategy, it will never truly succeed. They simply can't anticipate what everybody wants or will need. That is where PC's come into play.
I can do whatever I want/know how to do on a PC both from a hardware and software perspective. If I want to swap my motherboard, upgrade my processor, and keep my hard drives - I can. The key is that I have the knowledge to do that - not everybody does. Just because you can make music on your computer, doesn't mean you know how to (or even want to know how to) upgrade or repair that computer. I have found that the geekier people love their PC's, and the more artsy people love their Mac's. I respect the Mac for its quality, but I prefer the PC for its freedom.
One last thing (I can't believe you're still reading...)
People can say what they want about needing a dedicated PC, but unless you are doing this as your 8 to 5, you don't. I have a Dell laptop with 4GB of memory. It's not exactly the ideal choice for music (I mainly just use it when I travel). I can run everything (sessions with lots of VST's, plugins, etc...) with no lag or hiccups. I never turn off my antivirus (but I also don't use a bloated program like Norton or McAfee), Wi-Fi, or anything. If you have to do all of that just to make some music, your PC, Mac, or whatever needs an upgrade. Lastly, for full disclosure, I do in fact have a dedicated music PC which is my main workhorse. The point is you don't need one (but it is great to have) ;-)
somegeezer
4 Gazillion Rhodium User
If I could use my Studio One and Reaper, and play all my computer games on it, I'd drop both, and go a Linux route. =P Probably Peppermint, as i have that dual booted on my laptop, and it's a nippy little bastard.
As it is, Windows 7 gives me exactly what I need for all three of those options, and nothing else does.
As it is, Windows 7 gives me exactly what I need for all three of those options, and nothing else does.
Steenamaroo
...
Alright, fair enough. I can't argue with that.
I still think for the average Joe it's a much simpler life.
I don't think they're better man. I just think they're more accessible to casual users. There will always be exceptions but this has been my experience.
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