Jamie Jukosky
New member
When we were in high school my friend asked this really hot French foreign exchange student if she liked Mac or PC. We quickly slapped him upside the head.
itsme1234 said:Macs are too expensive. If you think about it, its kinda like a car. Sure...you can buy a Mercedez. You might get a smoother ride, but youre gonna pay out the ass for it. And if you need a part replaced you better be ready to shell out some extra cash. But you can still own a nissan or a kia (PC) and it will get you to your destination.....unless you get have a blow out or your battery dies, but then again thats what AAA is for. And even sitll you can always get a cab or public transportation if you are really stuck.....whoa, i totally lost track of my point....yea, youll get where your goin. Proud PC user and abuser.
Personally, I think you're nuts. And I set out to prove it. The problem is that if I let Apple drive the hardware configuration, it is impossible to do. Because the Xeon is on it's way out. The Mac fanatics may not want to hear this... I got into a pissing contest with Altitude909 over this. He stated that the Xeon Woodcrest are over $800 each. Actually they're down to $269 a pop. And there are no (okay, practically no) motherboards for the Xeon any more. I found only three... all Intel. And the problem with that is that they are all server mobos, not a desktop with decent video among them.dgatwood said:Except that Apple isn't expensive and hasn't been for a long time. Configure any Dell and any Apple with identical configurations and look at the price difference. For most hardware, you'll find it within about $50 or so, and the biggest difference I could find was only about $150.
So to go with your car analogy, the new Mercedez costs $100 more than the Ford Pinto. Alternately, you could build the Pinto from parts for a lot less.
iMac, 24-inch, Intel Core 2 Duo
Part Number: Z0DD
Apple Wireless Keyboard & wireless Mighty Mouse + Mac OS X (US English)
NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT 256MB SDRAM
Accessory kit
500GB Serial ATA Drive
2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB
2.33GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
SuperDrive 8X (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
# ANTEC P180 MID TOWER NO POWER SUPPLY 4x5.25" 1x3.5" 6x3.5"(hidden) & FRONT I/O CONNECTNO EXTRA FAN
# NO POWER SUPPLY
# POWER SUPPLY INSTALLATION
$124.02 $124.02
SKU: BA21830 - - -TEST2
# ASUS P5W DH DELUXE INTEL 975X CHIPSET SERIAL ATA300 ATX FORM FACTOR 2xPCI-E(X16)/2xPCI-E(X1)/3xPCI/4xDDR2 W/SATA2 RAID,DUAL LAN(Gb),1394A,USB 2.0 & AUDIO (CPU TYPE:INTEL - SOCKET 775)CORE 2 DUO E6600 2.4G (1066Mhz)
# NO EXTRA COOLING FAN
# NO MEMORY
$588.30 $588.30
SKU: BA22969 -BA22889 - -
OCZ OCZ2G10002GK 2GB KIT (1GB x 2) PC2-8000 1066MHZ 5-6-6-15 240-PIN DDR2 DIMM W/HEAT SPREADER ($40.00 Mail-In Manufacturer Rebate Available from 9/1/06 till 9/17/06)
$353.10 $353.10
SKU: BA23060
# COOLER MASTER REAL POWER 550W SLI ATX 12V UL & FCC POWER SUPPLY FOR ATX CASES (#RS-550-ACLY-SLI)NO TESTER
$115.00 $115.00
SKU: BA22414 -
# SONY DRU820A 16x8x16x/DVD+RW 16x6x16x/DVD-RW 8x/DVD+R DL 4x/DVD+R DL 48x32x48x/CD-RW EIDE INTERNAL W/SW (Retail) (Regular $77 - $7 Mwave Instant Discount = $70, While Supplies Last!)NO ACCESSORIES
# NO MEDIA
# NO CD CASE
# NO AUDIO/DATA CABLE
$69.94 $69.94
SKU: 3957482 - - - -
# WD 500GB WD5000YS SATA2 RAID 16MB 7200RPM (Bare drive)NO DATA CABLE
# NO POWER CORD
$179.90 $179.90
SKU: AA45420 - -
XFX GEFORCE 7600 GT EXTREME 256MB PCI EXPRESS 580MHZ DDR3 DUAL DVI/TV (Retail)
$175.00 $175.00
SKU: 3000499
MS WIRELESS OPTICAL DESKTOP 3.0 PS2/USB KEYBOARD & MOUSE (Retail)
$69.08 $69.08
SKU: 3480185
MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP PROFESSIONAL W/SP2 #E85-04135(DSP/OEM)*Must be Purchased w/Hardware!!*
$129.90 $129.90
SKU: AA15070
# ACER 24" AL241WD 1920X1200 1000:1 6MS (Silver) (Retail) (*Regular $707 - $30 Mwave Instant Discount = $677, While Supplies Last!)NO ACCESSORIES
# NO TV TUNER
$676.54 $676.54
SKU: 3810000 - -
ASSEMBLY & TESTING - Add to Cart
Assemble your selected configuration
Load necessary software/drivers
Test & check compatibility
No REFUNDS on assembly/testing
Please allow 5-7 working days for assembly
$79.99 $79.99
SKU: ASSEMTEST
wheelema said:However, the iMac is a 'nuther kettle of fish.
For $2,810 this is the iMac I came up with...
dgatwood said:My exact words were "configure any Dell", not "configure any random bunch of parts". I stand by my assertion that Apple is cost competitive with the reputable name brand PC vendors. Of course you can configure a PC from random parts for less than a name brand computer, and I said that in my previous post. There's a reason for that. You get far less when you build a machine yourself.
I loved the phrase 'reputable computer makers', like there is this humongous investment in infrastructure and facilities so as to 'test every configuration thoroughly to make sure it work'. I really loved ' In many cases, this actually results in the parts manufacturer changing their manufacturing process to fix flaws in the part'. Uh... no. One of my friend's brothers was Attorney General of Texas when Michael Dell was first starting off. He was a one-off system builder assembling custom boxes when customer complaints came in to the AG's office because he wasn't delivering them fast enough. No infrastructure, no facilities, just Mike and his coffee table.dgatwood said:Here's what you didn't get by building a machine from parts:
1. Compatibility testing: Reputable computer makers choose their components and test every configuration thoroughly to make sure it works. It takes weeks of testing every time a new config rolls out. In many cases, this actually results in the parts manufacturer changing their manufacturing process to fix flaws in the part. For example, the video cards in Macs have to meet certain standards for maximum noise level, and thus may use different cooler hardware.
With a built-it-yourself company, they may or may not have ever even built that exact machine configuration before, and I guarantee that they can't get changes made to the design of a component when/if it doesn't work correctly. All they can do is replace it or use a different brand of part.
Reputable computer makers specify vendors all the way down to the capacitor brands used in the power supply. This can and frequently does make a difference in terms of longevity.
Ah, we're back to the FUD term 'reputable vendors'. Anyway, all of those 'reputable' folks do 'burn in' do they? With 'stress tests' on just every single little component? Whereas with 'build-it-yourself' companies you will be lucky if the testing is more than 'superficial'.dgatwood said:2. Burn-in testing: Reputable vendors do 1-2 days of testing on each machine that ships out. During burn-in testing, all of the hardware goes through stress tests---the CPU, the GPU, RAM, every port, wireless networking, slots, optical drive, hard drive, etc. If anything fails, the machine gets pulled and a new one gets built for you. For build-it-yourself companies, even if they test the hardware, you'll be lucky if the testing is more than superficial (installing Windows and running a handful of basic tests).
You used to work for IBM, didn't you? If not, you have a future there... consider it.dgatwood said:3. Failure analysis and continuation engineering: Reputable vendors get machines serviced in larger numbers than companies that just build a handful of machines. The information about part failures gets collected, and if, for example, WD has a high failure rate in a series of drives, a reputable company would know it and would either force WD to fix their manufacturing process or use a different drive vendor. Build-it-yourself vendors don't know the failure rate of individual components, generally (DOA parts and failures during that 30-day return period notwithstanding)
One of the things that I really hated about the iMac was it's utter lack of expandability. At least the Mac Pro... dinosaur though it may be... allowed you additional HDD! But to hear you talk, it's a freaking benefit! Who knew!?! And to think that you are paying for the hours of engineering it takes to be able to cool such a 'powerful' machine in such a small enclosure!gdatwood said:4. Form factor: The iMac doesn't have a bulky box lurking under your desk. In total, it takes up about the same space as the flat panel you bought. That may or may not matter, depending on where you're deploying the box, but with the iMac you are paying for the form factor and the hours of engineering it takes to be able to cool such a powerful machine in such a small enclosure.
Hey! A valid point! YES, this is true! You pay for this too. But you know, the warranty on components is often much longer than what the 'reputable company' provides you. For example, Intel's warranty on their processors is three years. So, if you climb the (modest) learning curve and can roll-your-own, you get much better warranty coverage.dgatwood said:5. Warranty and technical support: Buying the iMac gets you a year of hardware support ant 90 days of software technical support. You can extend that to three years. If something goes wrong, you take the thing to an Apple store, drop it off, and a few days later, your machine is back in your hands, working.
What vendor are you dealing with, or is that 30 day/15% restocking fee an industry standard that my vendors don't know about? And, not to cause you to spasm out or anything, but even 'reputable manufactures' don't always get it right. They're human too. Really!!!gdatwood said:Buying the build-your-own machine gets you a machine with a 30 day return period, with 15% restocking for anything that isn't bad. You get to figure out which part failed yourself. After the first 30 days, if anything fails, you have a separate warranty for each part in the system and have to deal with the individual part vendor. And if there's a compatibility problem, those vendors will all blame each other.
I cannot speak to the CoreAudio vs. ASIO issue, though ASIO has never bitten me personally. But I did love your codicil 'Most USB and FireWire devices...'. I guess not all hmmm? Kind of like a PC, maybe??dgatwood said:6. Mac OS X: Whether you want to admit it or not, CoreAudio eats ASIO for breakfast. Multiple audio interfaces with multiple drivers? No problem. Multiple audio apps talking to the interface? No problem. Most USB and FireWire devices don't even require a driver in Mac OS X---have to use your friend's machine? No problem. No driver installation and configuration needed.
Well, no longer being in the Mac world I cannot speak to what Apple bundles. I can strip out that ridiculously fast and expensive RAM and down grade the box to Mac standards... that would provide plenty of money for software.dgatwood said:7. iLife: The imac comes with a bunch of bundled software. Yours just comes with Windows XP Pro.
Well, you are sure not ending this on the strongest note, are you? Wow, camera and microphone. Selling your own porn? Okay, toss about $50 bucks on the system price and, voila!dgatwood said:8. iSight: The iMac has a built-in video camera and microphone. Your machine does not.
wheelema said:I loved the phrase 'reputable computer makers', like there is this humongous investment in infrastructure and facilities so as to 'test every configuration thoroughly to make sure it work'.
wheelema said:I really loved ' In many cases, this actually results in the parts manufacturer changing their manufacturing process to fix flaws in the part'. Uh... no. One of my friend's brothers was Attorney General of Texas when Michael Dell was first starting off. He was a one-off system builder assembling custom boxes when customer complaints came in to the AG's office because he wasn't delivering them fast enough. No infrastructure, no facilities, just Mike and his coffee table.
wheelema said:I guess NewEgg and MWave... not to mention a hundred other component suppliers... must really be putting on a brave front prior to declaring bankruptcy since none of the components they sell work together and thus no one is buying them!
wheelema said:Lastly, in that deluge of misinformation, the phrase '...reputable computer makers specify vendors all the way down to the capacitor brands used in the power supply. This can and frequently does make a difference in terms of longevity.' is suitable for growing vegetables and not much else. For example, Dell doesn't spec out a non standard power supply for the purpose of 'longevity', it does it to force people to have their boxes repaired by Dell instead of by their neighbor.
wheelema said:Wow. Stress testing. So tell me, how do you 'stress test' a computer? Ever seen it done? 'Stress testing' is a manufacturer marketing term to give you the misapprehension that they are doing something special. They're not. You set the system up on a bench turn it on, and let it run through a routine for two days so as to minimize the chance you'll have to honor the warranty.
wheelema said:Many many (many) moons ago this crap might actually have a grain of truth in it, but not today. Certain components have a relatively low MTBF... hard disk drives for example... but this is intrinsic in their operation and not reflective of the manufacturing process.
wheelema said:One of the things that I really hated about the iMac was it's utter lack of expandability. At least the Mac Pro... dinosaur though it may be... allowed you additional HDD! But to hear you talk, it's a freaking benefit! Who knew!?!
wheelema said:Hey! A valid point! YES, this is true! You pay for this too. But you know, the warranty on components is often much longer than what the 'reputable company' provides you. For example, Intel's warranty on their processors is three years. So, if you climb the (modest) learning curve and can roll-your-own, you get much better warranty coverage.
wheelema said:What vendor are you dealing with, or is that 30 day/15% restocking fee an industry standard that my vendors don't know about? And, not to cause you to spasm out or anything, but even 'reputable manufactures' don't always get it right. They're human too. Really!!!
wheelema said:Oh, and 'compatibility problems'???? More FUD. Nowadays all parts are plug and play to well known and universal standards. Nobody is trying to plug a MicroChannel board into a EGA slot or hook a RLL HDD to a MFM controller.
robman341 said:I see that you are using Maxtor drives.. I know that some Maxtor SATA drives have some problems with nForce4 motherboards. If the hard drive were corrupting the data as it was being read, that would explain what you are seeing. It would be best if you could try some other model of SATA drive and see if the same problem shows up..
I am not seeing this problem on my A8N-SLI Deluxe with Seagate drives - I copied some 1GB files from drive to drive and did repeated "comp" on them, no differences were detected.
wheelema said:I cannot speak to the CoreAudio vs. ASIO issue, though ASIO has never bitten me personally. But I did love your codicil 'Most USB and FireWire devices...'. I guess not all hmmm? Kind of like a PC, maybe??
wheelema said:I know that the Mac Pro... as it exists today... is overpriced and nearly obsolete.
hrn said:Get a PC and be happy. PC's are at least two steps ahead of Macs in development I think. I have three machines running with Windows XP. Not one crash since I went to XP three years ago.
Hans
The Xeon processors used in the Mac Pro are about $270.Mindset said:You gotta look at it like this though, ALL computers released yesterday, are nearly obsolete lol...
BUT the new mac pro's running the xeon processors, are not overly priced... if that's the mac your talking about.... I went to Dell, and tried to 'mock' my system to see how much it would cost, and it's up there near $1,600 dollars, the new mac pro's are definently way faster than my system. And the price of that is what... $2,500? The Xeon processors alone are each $700 dollars each... That's $1,400 dollars for just the processors alone... Any competitor with the same system configuration will be about that same price, give or take a hundred.
I see valid points in both of yall's statements lol. Good read
Without exception, every ubergeek picks windows over mac
Apologies, missed that dual core designation. Now, you do some research and learn about economies of scale. The Mac Pro is a cash cow and the only box in the apple line that you can expand without relying solely on FireWire.altitude909 said:http://www.pricewatch.com/cpu/992844-1.htm
mac pro use 5160's, not that old ass 3.0E.
Research, do some.
cephus said:I'm not saying you mac guys aren't smart. It's just pretty obvious that you guys are lacking in a certain area of screwdriver logic that is required to keep windows PCs running. Without exception, every ubergeek picks windows over mac (unless you give them the chance to pick *nix).
Matt123 said:PC's are only less stable if you use the wrong components. A home built computer with good processor/ram/mobo will outperform a Mac for way cheaper.
Built my computer 6 months ago and it hasn't crashed yet!