Need to record live to CD

[blue_luke]

Hi all! First post here.

I searched this forum, and others but did not find a satisfying answer so far.
Next June, I will record all (about 30) the contestants performance in a classical music competition we have here in Québec.

This will imply about 40 hours of recording in total for the week!

I want to give each contestant an MP3 encoded CD at the end of their performance. (I have chosen MP3 for a reason I do not want to discuss here at this moment.)

So the plan is: set the Mics on stage, record on the laptop with Nuendo, send a live mix to the CD deck and burn a CD live. At the end, I give the CD in hand to the contestant and reposition the mics for the next performer.
I will have 15 minutes at most between each contestant. I have the feeling this will be a long (fun) week!

So right now, I am looking at the Tascam SS-CDR200
This unit is within my budget, say up to 1200$, and seems to do what I need.
Does anyone here have experience with what lurks ahead of me?
Is there another way of doing this? I really will not have time to prepare a CD redbook, authoring, burning etc... I use Wavelab for this, but I really don't have the time in this situation.
Thanks, Luc

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Seems like that Tascam will do it. I know you're set on recording in mp3 format, but a CD recorder that doesn't record in mp3 can be had new for a couple hundred dollars (US).

Hopefully you'll be recording the whole deal on something else. There's a good chance in such a long event that you'll miss the record button once or twice, so a backup is essential.

 

[mjbphotos]

You realize, of course that hardly anyone plays CDs these days? Why not pickup a box full of cheap USB sticks, you can send the files (as MP3) to a stick as soon as the performance is over, will be quicker than burning to CD - I've never heard of anyone burning a session live to a CD before - you record to your hard drive, then burn the file to disc.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I've never heard of anyone burning a session live to a CD before - you record to your hard drive, then burn the file to disc.

In the 90s jam band scene some bands would record each set in real time to CD-R, toss them in a duplicator and have CD sets for sale shortly after the show ended.

 

[DM60]

You realize, of course that hardly anyone plays CDs these days? Why not pickup a box full of cheap USB sticks, you can send the files (as MP3) to a stick as soon as the performance is over, will be quicker than burning to CD - I've never heard of anyone burning a session live to a CD before - you record to your hard drive, then burn the file to disc.

I agree, if you're going to put in into MP3 format, and you are already on the computer, buy in bulk, less than $2 a pop, record it, export, convert it/save it, next. Whole operation would take probably 5 minutes on the high end.

 

[blue_luke]

Yes I do record in a DAW (nuendo with 2X Fireface800 and a whole bunch of equipment)
Part of my offering to the contestant is to give them a very good trace of their live performance.
The room is a historic chapel in Montreal ( Bon Pasteur) converted in a small concert hall. The piano is a Fazioli 9' grand, the acoustic is superb with wooden walls and flooring.
The mic I use are Schoeps, Neumanns, Beyers and some of my own built. I use my own built preamps.
What I have in mind is an ORTF pair as mains, and accent mics placed where needed as the contest progresses. I record each mic on a separate track and feed either a stereo mix or maybe just the stereo pair to the CD recorder.
At the end of the performance, I give the CD, with a business card , to the contestant and prepare for the next.
My rationale is that everybody can play a CD anywhere, so it is still the universal medium.
The reason I use MP3 is that it can not be used for mastering. For this, then the contestant has to hire me to do a proper mix and mastering.

I have looked at the Tascam CD-RW901 also, and it does not record directly in MP3. So I am back at contemplating the SS-CDR200 which does that and also can record to USB and flash cards etc....

 

[bouldersoundguy]

My rationale is that everybody can play a CD anywhere, so it is still the universal medium. The reason I use MP3 is that it can not be used for mastering. For this, then the contestant has to hire me to do a proper mix and mastering.

I had a feeling this was your rationale. Unfortunately an mp3 CD is a CD-ROM, not an audio CD. To be almost universally playable it needs to be a standard Orange Book audio CD-R.

 

[DM60]

I had a feeling this was your rationale. Unfortunately an mp3 CD is a CD-ROM, not an audio CD. To be almost universally playable it needs to be a standard Orange Book audio CD-R.

Put another way, you are creating a data CD, which brings me back to my point, you can customer order your stick with your information printed on it, see instructions above, end result is the same and easier and faster. You can even set the template of the MP3 with metadata with your information, place, what not and the only thing you have to add is the contestant's name (plus this scrolls across the MP3 player). BAM! Triple calling card!

Much better way to go.

 

[blue_luke]

Put another way, you are creating a data CD, which brings me back to my point, you can customer order your stick with your information printed on it, see instructions above, end result is the same and easier and faster. You can even set the template of the MP3 with metadata with your information, place, what not and the only thing you have to add is the contestant's name (plus this scrolls across the MP3 player). BAM! Triple calling card!

Much better way to go.

That's interesting!
Can you expand? I think everybody in the music business has some means of playing a usb stick one way or another!
But remember I will not have 5 minutes between each contestant!
The Tascam CD recorder has an automatic 'finalize' that should take about 30 seconds to close the CD, I hope so
But your idea is interesting and I would like to know more about it.
Thanks, Luc

PS to all: English is not my main language ( I am french Canadian) so when replying please just beer in mind ( yes, the pun was intended! ) that I do not always understand all the expressions and acronyms, but yeah, go ahead, I'll figure it out and ask when lost!

 

[DM60]

That's interesting!
Can you expand? I think everybody in the music business has some means of playing a usb stick one way or another!
But remember I will not have 5 minutes between each contestant!
The Tascam CD recorder has an automatic 'finalize' that should take about 30 seconds to close the CD, I hope so
But your idea is interesting and I would like to know more about it.
Thanks, Luc

PS to all: English is not my main language ( I am french Canadian) so when replying please just beer in mind ( yes, the pun was intended! ) that I do not always understand all the expressions and acronyms, but yeah, go ahead, I'll figure it out and ask when lost!

So, even if it does all of this automatic, it will still take time. You have to load a new CD, get it ready to record. When complete, mix down/convert and then burn the CD.

If you go straight USB Flashdrive, you can have 90% of everything set up. Here is an example, not sure the version you have, but it might be possible for you to render from recording program to USB Flash drive (I tried to determine if the software does it, the Live version does, but I am not sure the one you have does. Test it out, export, MP3). So that you save it straight to the flash drive.

Flow is something like this (not sure how your DAW works but should be close):

- Place Flash Drive in USB port
- Open up software, setup tracks (I assume the software has a template for new tracks so create a template)
we will say 4 tracks for 4 microphones (say that fast three times)

- Do a "save as" artist to a folder you created for the event.
- Name is set for the project (for later mixing), how you're going to make you're money.

- Record artist - session over
- Save Project - (Name was set at the start)
- Export/render MP3 to the Flash drive (128 should be good and don't worry about saving the MP3 file to hard drive as you have the original project saved for later)
- Pull Flash drive out (with your advertisement on the drive), hand it to the person, insert the next Flash Drive in

- Close Project (Sometimes open new will close the other)
- Open up new for the next artist (The folder you created for the event should be the last one it goes to for saving, so your new project should automatically go to the last folder you saved to.)

Open up from template, Save as with new name.

That is as fast as it as going to get. You add in another piece of equipment, especially when it is not what you really want, will just make it harder to complete. You practice this a few times before you get there, and you have an idea of the time it will take. You can get a cheap Flash drive for trying it out. If you like it, order what you need (you will have to find out what a customer order is, but it shouldn't be more that $2-3 each. Get the smallest drive you can as it won't take much.

Hope this gives you some ideas at least.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

The Tascam CD recorder the OP references will record mp3 directly to USB:

- Insert drive
- Press record
- Press stop
- Remove drive

Having done video recording, multitrack audio recording, 2-track audio recording etc. while mixing live I've found that any distraction is a potential cause of significant errors. Keep everything as simple as possible for the best overall outcome.

 

[witzendoz]

How about using 2 computers, one to record and one to burn a CD, you could network the 2 computers or transfer between the 2 with usb sticks. The burning computer could be any old machine.

Using the 2 computers methord you could actually burn audio cd's.

Alan

 

[blue_luke]

The Tascam CD recorder the OP references will record mp3 directly to USB:

- Insert drive
- Press record
- Press stop
- Remove drive

Having done video recording, multitrack audio recording, 2-track audio recording etc. while mixing live I've found that any distraction is a potential cause of significant errors. Keep everything as simple as possible for the best overall outcome.

That's pretty much the way I see it.
Mixing is done live, I have done it many many times.
Most, if not all, of the sound can come from the ORTF pair above everything. Unless you have worked with microphones that good, in the proper acoustic environment with the proper gear you can not believe it could be done! Funny enough, the bigger the ensemble in the proper place, the easiest it becomes to record. After all, it's the conductor that does the mixing!
But back to my project, it will be mostly soloist accompanied by their pianist. Singers, soloists, maybe some percussionists. I will be given the programme beforehand and will have a few days to prepare. I will certainly not use more than eight microphones and then...
My idea is to have the choice of a few mics ready on their stand to be rolled in as needed, or tucked away if not needed.
Always the same track assigns, no EQ ,no effects etc ( don't need it).
The only unknown is the time it takes to 'finalize' the CD. I still think a CD is a good way to go, but I must admit a USB stick is also interesting. The tascam does both!

 

[blue_luke]

The Tascam CD recorder the OP references will record mp3 directly to USB:

- Insert drive
- Press record
- Press stop
- Remove drive

Having done video recording, multitrack audio recording, 2-track audio recording etc. while mixing live I've found that any distraction is a potential cause of significant errors. Keep everything as simple as possible for the best overall outcome.

Boulder, you forgot to mention in the recipe above - 'Finalise' and this is where I am a bit worried. I don't know how long this operation takes. A USB stick would not have this time lag. On the other hand, either way, there is no need to mix/master/author as I would record live. By the end of the performance, we're done!

 

[blue_luke]

How about using 2 computers, one to record and one to burn a CD, you could network the 2 computers or transfer between the 2 with usb sticks. The burning computer could be any old machine.

Using the 2 computers methord you could actually burn audio cd's.

Alan

I do record on two already for redundancy. If one freezes, and they do don't they? then I have a backup. Using a third laptop is not out of the question, but I need to do really is as soon as the performance is over, I get back on the stage, give the contestant his CD or USB stick, move the stuff around as needed, maybe go for a pee and then back to the gallery where I will set my stuff

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Boulder, you forgot to mention in the recipe above - 'Finalise' and this is where I am a bit worried. I don't know how long this operation takes. A USB stick would not have this time lag. On the other hand, either way, there is no need to mix/master/author as I would record live. By the end of the performance, we're done!

Finalizing is for CD-Rs. You just have to be sure the machine is stopped or off to insert or remove the USB drive. If you don't need the CD-R function look at the two other recorders in the series that lack the disc transport. They're about half the price of the CD-R version.

 

[blue_luke]

Finalizing is for CD-Rs. You just have to be sure the machine is stopped or off to insert or remove the USB drive. If you don't need the CD-R function look at the two other recorders in the series that lack the disc transport. They're about half the price of the CD-R version.

Arrived at this point, you may be right, no need for the CD writer anymore.
David mentioned that I can have USB sticks with company logo printed etc for cheap. The place I used to go here in Montreal for this sort of things is now closed. I don't mind buying on line but I don't know if there is some specs I should look for before buying these sticks. My reserve is based on the fact that some CF and SD card will not work in audio (access time?) and Tascam went to great lenght to test cards. They have a document on line that lists what works and not. Is there the same concern with USB sticks?
By the way, thanks all for the very helpful advices. This is much appreciated

 

[blue_luke]

Lookig at the prices of bulk USB sticks, this is becoming more and more realistic!
Now how big the stick should be for stereo MP3 recordings, say at 128K - 24bits ?
Is there a rule of thumb to figure this out? I know for WAV recording 24bits-48K I count approximately 5 megs per track per minutes. MP3 is new to me.
By the way, I am an old fart (60yo) missing my Studer analogue mixer and Nagra IV-S that nobody wants to use anymore! What I don't miss is the weight and the size of the rig I have to carry now! Much smaller and less heavy!

 

[DM60]

Lookig at the prices of bulk USB sticks, this is becoming more and more realistic!
Now how big the stick should be for stereo MP3 recordings, say at 128K - 24bits ?
Is there a rule of thumb to figure this out? I know for WAV recording 24bits-48K I count approximately 5 megs per track per minutes. MP3 is new to me.
By the way, I am an old fart (60yo) missing my Studer analogue mixer and Nagra IV-S that nobody wants to use anymore! What I don't miss is the weight and the size of the rig I have to carry now! Much smaller and less heavy!

A 4 minute song @192kbps is about 5 MB. You probably want lower resolution so they will ask for the higher. So, it would be less than that. I could not find anything less than 512 MB, so I wouldn't worry about the size. You could even put samples on them (copy past, but that would take some time), so many options.

Hope this has helped.

 

[blue_luke]

Then I am looking at the Tascam DA-3000 which have some more pro features like WC inputs and SDIF IO ins and outs usefull in my case for some development I have in mind but not directly related to this project.
Except for my far fetched ideas, I don't realy see the point in these but hey! they're there !
l