Low audio output but strong input connected to Mac

o0Ampy0o

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When I connect a keyboard to a computer the audio volume from the keyboard is significantly lower than any other audio source in the computer. This is happening with three separate computer systems and two different keyboards.

I have a digital piano (Casio PX150) connected to my Mac using a USB/MIDI cable. I am using Logic Pro 9 or Garageband for plugin sounds but the volume is significantly low even at the computer's maximum volume setting. It also requires impractical key force to generate volume. It produces a strong as should be expected signal according to the DAW meters but the actual audio I hear through headphones is weak. It seems like the default velocity settings are not sensitive enough but I really do not know enough to say whether it is not normal. From a practical standpoint this does not appear to be the way things should be by default.

It is impractical to accommodate this weak volume from a keyboard. I have a powered speaker system for computers which has a volume knob and enables me to achieve more volume bringing the keyboard up to usable listening and playing level but I have to carefully lower all other audio sources. When I record, all other source tracks have to be reduced to accommodate the keyboard track's low volume. Yet they register the same general input range in the DAW meters.

* The three computers are a Mac Mini running OS X 10.6.8, Mac Pro running OS X 10.10.5 and a Macbook Pro running OS X 10.11.3
* Keyboards: Casio PX150 and Yamaha MOX (I have swapped while experimenting with identical results).
* Connection is with a USB MIDI cable (I have two which I have swapped while experimenting with identical results).
* Tried Logic Pro 9, Garageband , with their native plugins and Kontakt as a plugin as well as Kontakt in standalone mode)
* During experimentation tracks setup with Logic or Garageband loops played at normal volume.
* Quicktime and VLC video as well as iTunes files play normally and match the system alert volume while I perceive the keyboards as abnormally low in audio output. This means when I have the keyboard audio maxed out in order to use it I must turn everything else down or off in advance to prevent being blasted with volume if they are triggered.
* I have tried two sets of headphones (both are Sennheiser, the HD 580 and HD 600) it is not the headphones as I hear all other sounds at normal volume but I swapped them anyway with identical results.
* Using MIDI Meter I see the velocity range. The keyboards produce identical MIDI information. Generally, with an average suppression of a key they register between 45-63. Bringing a key down hard ranges mostly in the 80's with as much as a single 109.
* Kontakt has a virtual keyboard. Probably inaccurate and unreliable eye candy but worth mentioning. Like a physical acoustic piano, pressing a key close to the pivot produces a softer note and when pressed at the front edge it produces the loudest note. If anything can be gathered from this both keyboards only achieve midrange volume or less and I have never been able to reach beyond 109. It took a significant thump to get to 109 and I doubt anyone would ever play that hard.

Does anyone have any idea of what could be causing this?

Thank you in advance.
 
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About all you can do is test it against other VST/i with their own virtual keyboard. Flat-out lead synth patches can be a good measure. There can be velocity throttles in the keyboard and in the software
 
About all you can do is test it against other VST/i with their own virtual keyboard. Flat-out lead synth patches can be a good measure. There can be velocity throttles in the keyboard and in the software
I have used Garageband's virtual keyboard, Logic's virtual keyboard and Kontakt's virtual keyboard to trigger plugins.

The audio triggered using the virtual keyboards matches the volume of other software devices (i.e. iTunes, Quicktime, OS alerts, etc.) while the perceivable audio triggered by the physical instrument is significantly lower.
 
Even my $80 Alesis Q25 has velocity settings. The first two setting are Velocity followed by Aftertouch. Then Reverb Depth followed by Volume. Make sure the keyboard is in order.
 
Even my $80 Alesis Q25 has velocity settings. The first two setting are Velocity followed by Aftertouch. Then Reverb Depth followed by Volume. Make sure the keyboard is in order.

I am aware of different locations for velocity adjustment. But I am not sure whether you suggesting that I measure, compare or compensate for the weakness or something else?

Thank you.
 
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Since post #1, there has been no reportage that you have the keyboard settings maxed
I have said the DAW meters indicate the DAW is receiving an adequate signal. It is only the perceptible audio that is weak. If I increase the keyboard signal it will lead to clipping. Contrast this to the loop tracks which appear equally adequate however they are significantly louder.
 
Check the gain settings on your audio interface? Does your interface have software settings? Internal settings on the keyboard? Is it possible a MIDI message in your DAW keeps telling the keyboard to turn down?

If you are saying that the level of audio signal going into your interface is fine, but you're not hearing adequate volume in your monitors or on playback, then something must be up with your monitor or playback settings in the DAW or in your interface. How are you monitoring? Are you monitoring the audio input directly back out of your interface? Or are you sending a MIDI signal to the DAW which is then going back out to your keyboard to trigger the audio? Or are you monitoring the recorded audio in your DAW?

Just by way of troubleshooting, try monitoring the audio input into your interface directly back out from the interface, bypassing your DAW (or at least not monitoring through the DAW). Does that change anything?
 
I have said the DAW meters indicate the DAW is receiving an adequate signal. It is only the perceptible audio that is weak. If I increase the keyboard signal it will lead to clipping. Contrast this to the loop tracks which appear equally adequate however they are significantly louder.

Loop tracks are, generally, processed. They are meant to fit a wide range of things - just a matter if you can find dry, or, not. Banging chords should be higher than the 80 you mentioned. Velocity is just how it responds. It's not the over all output. So, if you have to work really hard to get 109, it's probably not set right. What is your reasoning ? Sure, piano should have some playing headroom, but you you need to know what the settings are
 
I'm not trying to say its not something else, but I wouldn't be going any further until I know how the keyboard is set
 
First, thank you again for taking all of this time to consider this situation and offer assistance.

The Yamaha MOX has a built in audio interface. I do not know and could not determine whether the Casio PX150 does as well. It seems to and acts like it does compared with the MOX but I don't really know. I will need to research that further.

They are both producing identical input evinced by the DAW meters. Whether that translates to similar output from the keyboard I would guess yes but I don't know.

I am monitoring the audio using headphones connected to the computer. The sound source is software plugins. So the keyboards are being used as controllers.

I did a quick recording to check to see whether there was anything different than a live "broadcast" and there wasn't a difference.

I only put together a track to test loops because it was siggested on another website just to gather additional information. Similarly I tried other apps to compare perceptible audio levels (i.e. Quicktime video and audio files, iTunes and so on.). From this I know the loops behave as I would expect. Theiir volume is where I would expect. Their metering activity is where I would expect. All of which contrasts with the results from the physical instruments.

You are correct with my reasoning for the default velocity settings of the physical keyboards. It is possible that default is intentionally weak for some reason. I would expect this to be common knowledge. I am not experienced enough to know this but so far in my research and general exposure since acquiring the keyboards in 2014 forward I have not observed this. That does not mean I had every opportunity to see evidence of it. Just in my research over the last few days some experienced musicians have not immediately voiced it as I would expect if it were the case. Then again, it frequently requires that you be at a point in which you can clearly articulate a specific question to solicit a specific answer. This has all been evolving hour by hour and the focus has taken other forms along the way.

How can I monitor the output directly from the instruments? I have the DAW meters. I don't have physical meters. I have MIDI Monitor which produced what I noted in the first post.

Can you describe how I can gather additional information?

Thanks again.
 
Okay, I misunderstood. I thought you were using the keyboard to generate audio.

Try this. Use the keyboard to record a few bars of MIDI in your DAW, varying the velocity of your keystrokes. Go look at the velocity of the MIDI recording. Max volume is 127. If you are getting up there, then your keyboard setup is not your problem. In that case, the plugin would be the likely suspect.
 
You, sometimes, never know with MIDI, unless you check. I lot of editors will show every command and value and that can even be filtered against your needs. Patches and presets have volume and ranges, too.

My first "good" computer sequencer wanted to set all my volume to 100. So, I had to edit all the tracks and re-save
 
Try this. Use the keyboard to record a few bars of MIDI in your DAW, varying the velocity of your keystrokes. Go look at the velocity of the MIDI recording. Max volume is 127. If you are getting up there, then your keyboard setup is not your problem. In that case, the plugin would be the likely suspect.
I suspect you mean make a recording of the instrument's internal engine/samples as the sound source?

One thing about the Yamaha MOX is that its own set of patches have always been relatively low in volume straight from the factory. This is a common observation and complaint at the official Yamaha forum. I have not read about or measured the MIDI to see how this shows up to compare this to other keyboards. I will see how they compare with the Casio digital piano. So far I only know that as a controller they produce identical results.
 
I suspect you mean make a recording of the instrument's internal engine/samples as the sound source?

No. Set up a track in your DAW to receive and record MIDI data from the keyboard. Set up your keyboard to send MIDI data to the DAW. Then record the MIDI output of your keyboard in the track. You should be able go into edit mode in that track and look at the velocity of the MIDI notes your keyboard sent. Max velocity is 127. If your DAW is recording good MIDI velocity from your keyboard, then your problem lies elsewhere.
 
No. Set up a track in your DAW to receive and record MIDI data from the keyboard. Set up your keyboard to send MIDI data to the DAW. Then record the MIDI output of your keyboard in the track. You should be able go into edit mode in that track and look at the velocity of the MIDI notes your keyboard sent. Max velocity is 127. If your DAW is recording good MIDI velocity from your keyboard, then your problem lies elsewhere.
Will making a recording and looking at the recorded MIDI information show something different than what I did earlier where I used MIDI Monitor to view the velocity directly? I will try this regardless. It could provide more information on how the DAW is interpreting the information and other things I cannot think of.

"Using MIDI Meter I see the velocity range. The keyboards produce identical MIDI information. Generally, with an average suppression of a key they register between 45-63. Bringing a key down hard ranges mostly in the 80's with as much as a single 109."
 
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