Intel vs. Amd for beginner DAW?

[bball_1523]

I am currently in the process of buying a PC. I want to get an Intel P4 3.2 GHZ HT LGA 775 or the AMD equivalent (or better for the same price). I am struggling to find any difference between AMD and Intel. All I hear are opinions and not facts or examples that support opinions. I want a PC to play games and of course record my guitar and mess around with audio software such as Reason. I know RAM, soundcard and other factors play a role in how audio apps work, but I want more information on how processors work with these audio apps.

Now I want your opinions supported by facts and examples that you have encountered in your experiences with either Intel P4's or AMD Athlon 64's or whatever that is close enough to those high end processors.

 

[Rstiltskin]

most people have prejudices, not facts.......

I am currently in the process of buying a PC. I want to get an Intel P4 3.2 GHZ HT LGA 775 or the AMD equivalent (or better for the same price). I am struggling to find any difference between AMD and Intel. All I hear are opinions and not facts or examples that support opinions. I want a PC to play games and of course record my guitar and mess around with audio software such as Reason. I know RAM, soundcard and other factors play a role in how audio apps work, but I want more information on how processors work with these audio apps.

Now I want your opinions supported by facts and examples that you have encountered in your experiences with either Intel P4's or AMD Athlon 64's or whatever that is close enough to those high end processors.

I have been in the computer biz for about 35 years and I think I can help you.

One important factor is the supporting chip set, like the intel 9xx (915, 925) or the via, ati, sys, and the nvidia for the amd and some intel.

Intel and AMD both are introducing dual core (two processors on the same chip) processors, and everbody is introducing a new gen of support (or glue) chips.

a good answer to your question could take awile. If you pm me with your # I will call you on my nickel and try to help, no charge.

A short answer? Find out what is your most critical aplication (no you can't say they are all critical!). Call that software vendor and ask for model numbers and vendor names of systems that work reliably with their software.
Go from there.

by the way, vendors often lie, you just can't tell when. Since I sold by biz, I don't sell hardware or sofware and longer, so I am not trying to sell you anything. But I do know a lot about the wrong way to do things. Sometimes you back into the truth!

 

[bball_1523]

I have been in the computer biz for about 35 years and I think I can help you.

One important factor is the supporting chip set, like the intel 9xx (915, 925) or the via, ati, sys, and the nvidia for the amd and some intel.

Intel and AMD both are introducing dual core (two processors on the same chip) processors, and everbody is introducing a new gen of support (or glue) chips.

a good answer to your question could take awile. If you pm me with your # I will call you on my nickel and try to help, no charge.

A short answer? Find out what is your most critical aplication (no you can't say they are all critical!). Call that software vendor and ask for model numbers and vendor names of systems that work reliably with their software.
Go from there.

by the way, vendors often lie, you just can't tell when. Since I sold by biz, I don't sell hardware or sofware and longer, so I am not trying to sell you anything. But I do know a lot about the wrong way to do things. Sometimes you back into the truth!

well most critical would be recording applications of any kind. I don't have windows XP nor do I have a computer that can support the newer audio applications. I think recording guitar is my most important task that I want to perform on the PC, so a program like Cubase SX or Pro Tools, or even the cheaper Adobe Audition would be a safe bet to what is most critical.

Since you said it would take a long time to deal with this stuff, is there any way you can email me and we can talk there or instant message? I'd prefer that over calling if that's ok with you.

 

[nroberts]

I am currently in the process of buying a PC. I want to get an Intel P4 3.2 GHZ HT LGA 775 or the AMD equivalent (or better for the same price). I am struggling to find any difference between AMD and Intel. All I hear are opinions and not facts or examples that support opinions. I want a PC to play games and of course record my guitar and mess around with audio software such as Reason. I know RAM, soundcard and other factors play a role in how audio apps work, but I want more information on how processors work with these audio apps.

Now I want your opinions supported by facts and examples that you have encountered in your experiences with either Intel P4's or AMD Athlon 64's or whatever that is close enough to those high end processors.

In my opinion and experience AMD is usually the best choice and not just because of price. Ever since the Athlon the AMD chip has been doing as well or better than Intel chips in most venues. There are occasional brief periods where this is not so, but for the most part AMD is very competative if not just plain better.

The AMD64 has its frontside bus inside the processor. It also has hyper transport. It has a bunch of other stuff that you won't get to use using 32 bit Windows, which is what you will want to run your DAW software unless there is something available for the new 64 bit windows. I am under the impression from friends and such that there is little in the way of applications that run on 64 bit windows. Theoreticall they should be providing 32 bit access to kernel calls so that programs can run in compatibility mode but maybe they don't. In 64 bit mode the CPU has over twice as many registers among other things...this means more speed assuming programs can take advantage of them.

AMD is a lot less expensive also. There is very little reason to buy Intel and I haven't in years. On average, at least in the past, Intel chips have cost about 2x as much as comparable AMD chips. Unless they accell in something I need, and they haven't so far, I just don't see justification for the expense. Obviously my recommendation is AMD and that is always what I buy.

 

[Rstiltskin]

Oh Gosh! (hand upside head, bugged out eyes)....

In my opinion and experience AMD is usually the best choice and not just because of price. Ever since the Athlon the AMD chip has been doing as well or better than Intel chips in most venues. There are occasional brief periods where this is not so, but for the most part AMD is very competative if not just plain better.

The AMD64 has its frontside bus inside the processor. It also has hyper transport. It has a bunch of other stuff that you won't get to use using 32 bit Windows, which is what you will want to run your DAW software unless there is something available for the new 64 bit windows. I am under the impression from friends and such that there is little in the way of applications that run on 64 bit windows. Theoreticall they should be providing 32 bit access to kernel calls so that programs can run in compatibility mode but maybe they don't. In 64 bit mode the CPU has over twice as many registers among other things...this means more speed assuming programs can take advantage of them.

AMD is a lot less expensive also. There is very little reason to buy Intel and I haven't in years. On average, at least in the past, Intel chips have cost about 2x as much as comparable AMD chips. Unless they accell in something I need, and they haven't so far, I just don't see justification for the expense. Obviously my recommendation is AMD and that is always what I buy.

This gentleman (or woman) does not want to buy an AMD, he/she (just assume I do that all the way through) does not want to buy and Intel.

He wants to buy SOMETHING THAT WILL WORK FOR HIM!!! Start with the people that support the application he needs most. If they have been in business very long they will have a very good idea. And not just vendors but model numbers or at least MB maker and supporting chipset.

When I got a DC1000e card made by pinnacle I asked Videoguys what they could support the best, They said they were still having trouble with amd's and suggested an intel, I said what about the glue chip set made by intel, the 845. They said great! Okay, I got an abit MB because it also included raid 0,1 on the MB. Abit is the gamers first choice because of its overclockability.

Crashed intermittently every 3 hours to 3 days. Regardless of ap. I still have it, but crital stuff is done on the Asus MB. Stable as a rock but a few frames per second slower at unreal tournament than the abit mb. same glue chipset, same amount of ram. Oh yeah, and how about the ram, and the manufacturer of same.I have had crucial come doa, and also some super special gamers ram come doa. worse than doa is intermittant failures! Is it the power suppliy, the cpu chip, old bios, the operating system, bad cable and on and on.

Windows XP is mostly win 2000 that is largely windows nt and was made by a guy microsoft hired from dec that wrote one of dec's operating system. It does not have a kernel like Unix/Linux, as such. The linux kernel is just a few K (and I mean k!) in size and very little user code is ever executed in it. Not so nt/2000/xp. That is one reason it has more bugs and less security then linux/unix. Most all code is backward compatible in xp64. one of the main things is larger memory space and faster transfer (via bigger chunks of data with fewer instructions) of data.

Most all new intel chips are hyperthreaded now. with the dual processor chips just coming online you can have two actual processors both with hyperthreading on the same chip. Amd is starting to do the same with dual processors (due sometime june if all goes well) but does not support hyperthreading. Which may not matter at all if your software does not support one or the other or both. Xp will support multiple processors up to about 4, I think, until you have to go to a server operating system.

Since I don't know his most important aplication I don't know which amd processor or intel processors to reccomend.


If he should get an amd processor should he get the 55 or what. Should he get a server type mb or one that is more oriented towards gamers, ecc or registerd memory or neither. does he need a raid array. will he need two monitors? (I have two systems both with dual 19inch monitorys, I will never go back. when I am in photoshop i can have my image on one side and all the menus I need open on the other)

Does he need a case that mutes sound or one that optimizes cooling.

I could go on.

In my opinion, and its JUST my opinion (although it is an INFORMED opinion) what you have is a prejudice that has worked for you so far. please don't post all the tests that show the amd usually has more processing power at a lower price point. I will agree with them. I read tomshardware, sharky, anand shimpy and pc magazine plus many others. But this person wants a wrench that works, and I don't know enough to reccomend a craftsman, or snap-on, or some cheap chinese set.

I guess you do, and I think that you believe that amd is right for him, but I think the right processor is just about 20 percent of a successful system for him.

 

[Rstiltskin]

mmmmmm thinking, thinking, mmmmm no.

well most critical would be recording applications of any kind. I don't have windows XP nor do I have a computer that can support the newer audio applications. I think recording guitar is my most important task that I want to perform on the PC, so a program like Cubase SX or Pro Tools, or even the cheaper Adobe Audition would be a safe bet to what is most critical.

Since you said it would take a long time to deal with this stuff, is there any way you can email me and we can talk there or instant message? I'd prefer that over calling if that's ok with you.

I am retired. I want to help if I can, because I want to help you, not because talking about computers is fun for me anymore.

If you look at my reply to the other gentlemen you will see it is riddled with little errors. Yuck. I will be glad to talk to you on my nickel as I have a cell contract that has unlimited use night or day, any day of the week, anywere in the lower 48. but to get you to a point where I would feel good about your long term success could take several back and forths of indefinite length. I am not insisting, or begging. I just don't have a secretary anymore.

good luck.
Jon

 

[bball_1523]

I am retired. I want to help if I can, because I want to help you, not because talking about computers is fun for me anymore.

If you look at my reply to the other gentlemen you will see it is riddled with little errors. Yuck. I will be glad to talk to you on my nickel as I have a cell contract that has unlimited use night or day, any day of the week, anywere in the lower 48. but to get you to a point where I would feel good about your long term success could take several back and forths of indefinite length. I am not insisting, or begging. I just don't have a secretary anymore.

good luck.
Jon

well I understand that you'd like to inform as much as possible and that calling would be a easy way for you, but I was wondering if emailing was an option or instant messaging on AIM,Yahoo or MSN was alright with you? I'll be honest and that is that I don't feel too comfortable talking over the phone.

I still don't quite understand your question about what application is the most important to me.

 

[Rstiltskin]

short.......

well I understand that you'd like to inform as much as possible and that calling would be a easy way for you, but I was wondering if emailing was an option or instant messaging on AIM,Yahoo or MSN was alright with you? I'll be honest and that is that I don't feel too comfortable talking over the phone.

I still don't quite understand your question about what application is the most important to me.

Reactor or Reason or Sonar or Cubase or most any processor/operating system/aplication/chipset have "Known Problems" with certain combinations of same. Early on some programs made direct manipulations of hardware and expected certain things to be at certain places. That required an intel processor and intel chipset. That has changed a lot, for the better.

some hardware only has wdm drivers, some asio, some will use both, some use both by putting a wrapper around the ap and making it be wdm (sonar does this I think). There are literally 1000's, maybe tens of thousands of combinations of processor vendors, bios vendors, processor makers, operating systems, software applications, pci cards, agp cards, pci express cards and outboard equipment. They don't all work together. Some not well, some not at all. Most do. Why do you think Apple is more reliable/friendly? One company makes the machine and operating system. and certifies add on hardware (for a fee).

for instance, if you want cubase, go to their website and call or email tech support about any known issues (bugs) they can alert you to. That you are going to build/purchase a system from scratch and need to know. Because it must run cubase well. See what they say.

Are you going get an outbord channel strip/ad converter that uses usb or firewire? Go to their website, same/same.

maybe thay will say everything works with everything. I would be shocked, but maybe thats what they will say. If so go out and get the cheapest emachines system you can get.

to sum up, be glad to help, no charge, on my nickel, at your convenience.
No I will not type for hours, call me selfish but, well, I guess I'm selfish.

going to walk the dog and then to bed.
jon

 

[bball_1523]

Reactor or Reason or Sonar or Cubase or most any processor/operating system/aplication/chipset have "Known Problems" with certain combinations of same. Early on some programs made direct manipulations of hardware and expected certain things to be at certain places. That required an intel processor and intel chipset. That has changed a lot, for the better.

some hardware only has wdm drivers, some asio, some will use both, some use both by putting a wrapper around the ap and making it be wdm (sonar does this I think). There are literally 1000's, maybe tens of thousands of combinations of processor vendors, bios vendors, processor makers, operating systems, software applications, pci cards, agp cards, pci express cards and outboard equipment. They don't all work together. Some not well, some not at all. Most do. Why do you think Apple is more reliable/friendly? One company makes the machine and operating system. and certifies add on hardware (for a fee).

for instance, if you want cubase, go to their website and call or email tech support about any known issues (bugs) they can alert you to. That you are going to build/purchase a system from scratch and need to know. Because it must run cubase well. See what they say.

Are you going get an outbord channel strip/ad converter that uses usb or firewire? Go to their website, same/same.

maybe thay will say everything works with everything. I would be shocked, but maybe thats what they will say. If so go out and get the cheapest emachines system you can get.

to sum up, be glad to help, no charge, on my nickel, at your convenience.
No I will not type for hours, call me selfish but, well, I guess I'm selfish.

going to walk the dog and then to bed.
jon

well that stuff seems a bit too technical for me. I'm not the serious DAW user, I'm just a beginner for fun DAW user. I would like a computer for both games, recording/playing guitar, chatting, surfing web, etc. Recording/playing guitar will be my main thing, but games would also be of concern.

I don't know for sure if Cubase will be my program of choice. I'll have to do some research on what a good program will be. I might even save up some money to buy an MBox that comes with Pro Tools. It seems as if any of the processors will work for any of the programs. There may be small technical bugs such as those you mentioned above, but they may not be of concern to me because I'm not the serious DAW user.

 

[Rstiltskin]

dog dancing in hallway, still I can't shut up.........

well I understand that you'd like to inform as much as possible and that calling would be a easy way for you, but I was wondering if emailing was an option or instant messaging on AIM,Yahoo or MSN was alright with you? I'll be honest and that is that I don't feel too comfortable talking over the phone.

I still don't quite understand your question about what application is the most important to me.

This may help, I forgot earlier. Go to www.Videoguys.com and look around for something named 'setting up a system for video' or building a system for video or the like. this is good info and a similar to what you would have to do for audio.

dog and I mus go
bye
jon

 

[nroberts]

Wow, wasn't expecting to get attacked!!

This gentleman (or woman) does not want to buy an AMD, he/she (just assume I do that all the way through) does not want to buy and Intel.

He wants to buy SOMETHING THAT WILL WORK FOR HIM!!! Start with the people that support the application he needs most. If they have been in business very long they will have a very good idea. And not just vendors but model numbers or at least MB maker and supporting chipset.

When I got a DC1000e card made by pinnacle I asked Videoguys what they could support the best, They said they were still having trouble with amd's and suggested an intel, I said what about the glue chip set made by intel, the 845. They said great! Okay, I got an abit MB because it also included raid 0,1 on the MB. Abit is the gamers first choice because of its overclockability.

Crashed intermittently every 3 hours to 3 days. Regardless of ap. I still have it, but crital stuff is done on the Asus MB. Stable as a rock but a few frames per second slower at unreal tournament than the abit mb. same glue chipset, same amount of ram. Oh yeah, and how about the ram, and the manufacturer of same.I have had crucial come doa, and also some super special gamers ram come doa. worse than doa is intermittant failures! Is it the power suppliy, the cpu chip, old bios, the operating system, bad cable and on and on.

Interesting story, but I struggle to find the relevance and am not sure I actually understood it.

Windows XP is mostly win 2000 that is largely windows nt and was made by a guy microsoft hired from dec that wrote one of dec's operating system. It does not have a kernel like Unix/Linux, as such. The linux kernel is just a few K (and I mean k!) in size and very little user code is ever executed in it. Not so nt/2000/xp. That is one reason it has more bugs and less security then linux/unix. Most all code is backward compatible in xp64. one of the main things is larger memory space and faster transfer (via bigger chunks of data with fewer instructions) of data.

Also wondering why unix is being brought up. This user wants Reason and this is a Windows application. If he was considering Linux I would recommend the same processor. The OS actually has no relevance beyond does he want 64 bit or not but even if he doesn't the amd64 is still a good choice.

Another main thing about 64 is that most programmers don't know how to write code that will run on it and 32 bit platforms. As code is ported it is buggier than its 32 bit counterparts.

Most all new intel chips are hyperthreaded now.

Hyperthreading bad....security problems.

If he should get an amd processor should he get the 55 or what.

? Never heard of it.

Should he get a server type mb or one that is more oriented towards gamers, ecc or registerd memory or neither. does he need a raid array. will he need two monitors? (I have two systems both with dual 19inch monitorys, I will never go back. when I am in photoshop i can have my image on one side and all the menus I need open on the other)


Does he need a case that mutes sound or one that optimizes cooling.

I could go on.

None of that has anything to do with the processor. Mountains out of molehills.

In my opinion, and its JUST my opinion (although it is an INFORMED opinion) what you have is a prejudice that has worked for you so far. please don't post all the tests that show the amd usually has more processing power at a lower price point. I will agree with them. I read tomshardware, sharky, anand shimpy and pc magazine plus many others. But this person wants a wrench that works, and I don't know enough to reccomend a craftsman, or snap-on, or some cheap chinese set.

I don't really understand the above; actually many parse errors in this reply. If you mean to imply I don't know anything...well, you're right. I know nothing.

Have a nice day.

 

[nroberts]

well that stuff seems a bit too technical for me. I'm not the serious DAW user, I'm just a beginner for fun DAW user. I would like a computer for both games, recording/playing guitar, chatting, surfing web, etc. Recording/playing guitar will be my main thing, but games would also be of concern.

I don't know for sure if Cubase will be my program of choice. I'll have to do some research on what a good program will be. I might even save up some money to buy an MBox that comes with Pro Tools. It seems as if any of the processors will work for any of the programs. There may be small technical bugs such as those you mentioned above, but they may not be of concern to me because I'm not the serious DAW user.

Processor choice isn't going to even be an issue for a casual user. For serious gamming or something like that then maybe you need to overly concern yourself with the processor brand. If you were building something specifically to act as a DAW that your livelyhood depended on then maybe you would need to worry about processor brand/type/batch.

There are issues with any processor. They all have bugs and none are the same. Even buying the same type of processor will be different depending on what batch it was in. There really is no way to guarantee that your software won't have issues with a particular processor. It is VERY rare that it would ever happen excepting cases where you move to totally different architectures...ie the Apples use totally different processors and the AMD64 is also different but has a legacy mode.

So I wouldn't worry about it. Get what seems resonable as far as price. Usually you save an average of ~200+ getting AMD instead of Intel, but not always. In other words, it doesn't really matter that much, if at all. Get the best deal you can.

 

[Rstiltskin]

Could not agree with you more.

Have the nicest, nicest, possible day, and a better one tomorrow.

Nice tie.

If you will pay me, I will be glad to point out how I think you are incorrect on most every point. I have 3 amd processor machines in my office, including the duron machine dedicated to grokster. I have no intel machines at present. I don't have any personal bent for or against intel or amd.

If you call pointed comments attacks I will try to be more sensitive to your sensibilities in the future. I brought up linux because you mentioned the kernel, usually not a term used in windows programming.

 

[Rstiltskin]

now I understand.....

well that stuff seems a bit too technical for me. I'm not the serious DAW user, I'm just a beginner for fun DAW user. I would like a computer for both games, recording/playing guitar, chatting, surfing web, etc. Recording/playing guitar will be my main thing, but games would also be of concern.

I don't know for sure if Cubase will be my program of choice. I'll have to do some research on what a good program will be. I might even save up some money to buy an MBox that comes with Pro Tools. It seems as if any of the processors will work for any of the programs. There may be small technical bugs such as those you mentioned above, but they may not be of concern to me because I'm not the serious DAW user.

With which system will compatibilities be tested most. A purpose built system working from your most desired aps to the least, or a system that you expect everything to run on.

I guess by reading your post:

"All I hear are opinions and not facts or examples that support opinions. I want a PC to play games and of course record my guitar and mess around with audio software such as Reason. I know RAM, soundcard and other factors play a role in how audio apps work, but I want more information on how processors work with these audio apps."

I got the impression you were really serious. Its what I have done most of my life, and I suppose I am too serious about it.

Instead of this:

"Now I want your opinions supported by facts and examples that you have encountered in your experiences with either Intel P4's or AMD Athlon 64's or whatever that is close enough to those high end processors."

I might suggest "I am a casual user that might want to get into recording in a limited way and I need an all around system in which price is an object".

That is why I suggested phone. If I was talking to you in realtime and you said you did not understand why something is important I could give you facts and examples from my experience why I thought so and what (if any) consequences of not getting certain points covered before you buy would be.

Then you could say, worth it or not worth it.

Wish you well

 

[bdemenil]

AMD opterons or 64s are the way to go. They easily beat Intel's counterparts. Epox or Asus motherboards are best. Currently, Intels are not as good except maybe in the super high end. P4 was a failure

 

[Codmate]

X86 systems are much of a muchness.

I recently built a nice AMD64 system for work though - it's for all sorts of multimedia capture and runs well.

It's based on the Shuttle SN95G5V2 bare-bones, which is fairly quiet and has a small footprint.

If I were to build a new system for myself it would be AMD64 based.
Wish I could afford it

 

[TravisK]

we use amd64 in our studio and after close to 40 plugins on our current project (anything from compressors to EQs to autotune) we are still well under 50% CPU usage during playback.

I strongly suggest AMD, especially the dual core 64s. Programs like Sonar 4 already support dual core if i'm not mistaken. and even if you can't afford the dual core yet, the current socket 939 motherboards will accept socket 939 dual core chips. So grab a cheaper one (like a 64 3200) right now and wait for the price drop and grab a newer cpu in a year and it'll be joyous times for you studio on each upgrade.

 

[elevate]

P4 was a failure

You can lambast Intel all you want, but calling a processor that scaled from 1.4Ghz to 3.7Ghz a failure seems more than a little misguided.

 

[bdemenil]

You can lambast Intel all you want, but calling a processor that scaled from 1.4Ghz to 3.7Ghz a failure seems more than a little misguided.

First off, clockspeed is not the only measure of a processor. Second, this degree of scaling is typical of many processor families including the P3 (400 MHz - 1.4 GHz).

In reaction to customer obsession with clockspeed, Intel sacrificed performance for clockspeed in the P4. A 1 GHz P3 actually outperforms a 1.5 GHz P4. A comparable AMD XP is superior to both, and AMD64 and Opteron are in another league. The P4 was outperformed by the competition from the moment it was released. By now it's seriously antiquated. People at Intel privately admit the P4 was a blunder. The only thing that continues to carry it forward is branding.

 

[AGCurry]

Coke or Pepsi?

Yawn...