How best to record the band on separate tracks ?

wuzzo

668- the neighbour of the beast
Hello
I'm a bit of a newb but I received excellent advice here on choosing speakers to match our Behringer PMP6000 active mixer for live performance- so I thought I'd ask this question here;
We want to record ' live '- all playing together at home- and I'm just putting the PMP monitor output into my existing PC audio interface, which is a Roland Quad Capture- but of course it's ' ready mixed ' to one track and we don't have the option of ' sculpting ' the vocals/instruments individually.

Where do we go from here to achieve more recording/editing control ?
 
Quite simply you need a multitrack audio interface and the best bang for buck is the Tascam range.

The Tascam US-1608 has 8 mic inputs but can take several more line inputs (you just might be able to use the Roland as a two input mic preamp. )

Naturally you will also need at least 8 microphones, the cables and stands! Put a few sets of headphones on the shopping list as well AND a 4 (minimum) output headphone amplifier.

As you can see, although the actual interface is pretty reasonable, £200 ish for 16 tracks, the ancillaries add up! Then, although I have never had the kit to try it, I doubt multirack recording is exactly easy?

There is a bit of a get out. If (and only if!) your band is very good in the sense that you can produce a good balance for yourselves such that a punter 10 mtrs away is getting a good impression of a 'tight' band AND can understand the vocals, you could try a simple stereo pair setup about where aforementioned punter would be. Google 'Co-Incident Stereo Recording'.

Dave.
 
How many inputs of the Behringer are you using? Is there anything else you need to capture that isn't in the mixer, like a guitar amp that's loud enough on its own or drum overheads? Add those sources up and you'll know how many inputs you'll need on the interface.

For anything going through the Behringer mic inputs you could build or buy simple insert tap cables to take signal from the inserts to line inputs on an interface. For anything not already going through those mic inputs you'll need mics, stands, cables and mic preamps, or you'll need to use the direct output of an amp. Give us an idea of you band's input list and we can suggest specific hardware.
 
Insert tap cables ? I'll look 'em up.

Behringer inputs currently in use;

4 x vocal mics ( all Shure SM58s )
1 x hand percussion mic. ( Beyer dynamic )
2 x guitar amp. line outs.( Marshall valve-states)
1 x Roland electro drum kit
2 x keyboards

We're currently filling the bottom end with keyboard bass or guitar synth- but it's not inconceivable that we add a fretless bass player in future. We're essentially a foursome though.
 
Recording multi-track is a significant leap in complexity from what you are doing now.

As Dave said above, the first requirement is an audio interface that has capacity for the number of tracks you want to record simultaneously. At the moment, your list shows 10 channels in use, and you may have need for another. It is relatively easy to find affordable interfaces of eight channels or less, but less so for bigger channel numbers.

Your mixer has inserts on each track, and, once you have found an interface, you connect to the interface through these (as Boulder said above).
 
Insert tap cables have TRS on one end and TS on the other. The tip and ring of the TRS are connected together and to the tip of the other end. TRS into the insert, TS into the interface. Or you can cheat and stick a standard guitar (TS) cable halfway into the insert.
 
Another option is to add up the cost of all the gear needed to do this then stack that up against some time in a pro studio?
Of course, you might want the recording system to learn/play/have a craic with and that is fine but if you have a few well polished songs you want good recordings of, a studio would be more cost/time/quality effective.

Dave.
 
Another option is to add up the cost of all the gear needed to do this then stack that up against some time in a pro studio?
Of course, you might want the recording system to learn/play/have a craic with and that is fine but if you have a few well polished songs you want good recordings of, a studio would be more cost/time/quality effective.

Dave.

My experiences of pro studios have not been positively memorable- so a home studio is definitely for us. It will be rewarding to learn- and economical over time.

Any recommendations on a ten-input audio interface ?
Also an eight-input as you say they are more readily available. We can always overdub a keyboard, a vocal or the hand percussion without losing the live feel of everything.
That said- I've just rediscovered an old EMU 1820M interface which I found way too complicated for me several years ago and intended to sell. Perhaps I can get to grips with that again.

Assuming that we'll need an ' insert tap cable ' for each of the PMP6000 mixer channels- where will we find these ? Can you recommend a type/cable length ? We were advised earlier to use Neutrik jack connections- which is what we've done.
 
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What you really need is a 10 LINE input interface but I don't know of one at anything like the price of the Tascam 16-08. The latter only has 6 line inputs AFAICS but you have a couple of options with the 8 mic inputs.

If you want to use the inserts and are making up your own cables (strongly recommended!) 8 of them can have a 20dB balanced attenuator in them. Or you could make up XLR passive mic splitters.

Cable? Does not matter a jot in terms of sound quality but much depends upon the setup? If the kit will be pretty much 'fixed site' you can save quite a bit by using foil shielded mic cable of about 4mm OD. This stuff is much cheaper than HQ, high flexibility 'studio' cable. It is also MUCH easier to strip and solder. Instead of a braided screen you have a bare drain wire (sleeve it!). Cuts prep time by 3 or 4 times.

Length? These will be unbalanced so look at 3mtrs as about the most you want to run.

N very B! Work up a rational labelling system so you know which end is which and which cables have attenuators in them. At the XLR end make sure the polarity is preserved.

Dave.
 
I connect line level signals - usually keyboards, but also sometimes mixer outputs - to the mic pres on my Tascam US1641 all the time. No attenuators needed. Minimum gain -6db, and they have as much headroom as any line level device that might feed them. I bought the cheapest 8 channel TRS>XLRM snake I could find and cut the outer sleeve off to have individual "adapter" cables. They're only 3' long, but you can extend them with standard mic cables.

So anyway, you'll do fine with the newer Tascam unit.

I personally might try to capture MIDI from the drum kit and maybe the keyboards. Seems like you're running all of these in mono? Is that to save inputs, or a stylistic choice?
 
I know I've seen insert tap cables, adapters and snakes, but they are uncommon. It might be easier to build them yourself and or have someone build them for you. It's not that hard. You could simply use guitar cables and replace one end or each, or do the same with a 1/4" unbalanced snake.

Since this is in your own space where things are not subject to public interference, it might be worth experimenting with the half-click method using standard 1/4" TS (guitar) cables. You could even test it out with your current interface just to see if it works.
 
Not checked the 16-41 Ash' (but will) but the US 1608 spec give max input for the mic XLRs as +8dBu, bloody good for a mic amp but well below the possible +22dBu from the mixer's insert.

Good point about MIDI. The interface does of course HAVE MIDI I/O as all proper ones should!

Dave.
 
". It's not that hard. You could simply use guitar cables and replace one end or each, or do the same with a 1/4" unbalanced snake."

OP would not have enough line inputs for his purpose BSG so he would have to use XLR mic ins. Linked TRS to XLR will be a very rare beast indeed IMHO?

No, he would not NEED the mixer if he had the Tascam but since he does it makes sense to use it to me.

Dave.
 
For an interface with mic inputs (that aren't combo line inputs) XLR splitters would do the trick.
 
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We can always overdub ...vocal

Honestly, I would recommend planning on that anyway. Vocals tend to turn into a mess pretty quickly in a live recording environment.

Speaking of environment, what's your room like? Are you able to get good isolation for everything? Bleed is the other big problem with a live recording. (And why good studios charge so much: they've put hundreds of thousands of dollars into the rooms alone)
 
Not checked the 16-41 Ash' (but will) but the US 1608 spec give max input for the mic XLRs as +8dBu...
Tascam's Spec page for the 1641 doesn't give a max input, but it says nominal level with gain at minimum is -2dbu, which I guess means that min gain is +6db over the line input, contrary to my poor remembering above. That's still not enough to be a problem in most cases, but a good reminder that I shouldn't be quite so cavalier.

It surprises me that the 16x08 is so different. 6db is pretty easy to deal with (just don't turn the source all the way up), but with the newer one I guess you might be safer just starting with an attenuator. A passive DI would probably give about the right stepdown. Here, though, we're breaking like every rule of analog gain staging...
 
I'm becoming inclined towards simply using the PMP6000 for ' one track' live recording and using the EMU 1820M at home for multi-tracking. It has enough inputs, I think, and we can overdub for a finished mix. Will this do the job ?

EMU 1820M Inputs and outputs.

8) Ch. ADAT Optical In
(8) Ch. ADAT Optical Out
(2) Ch. S/PDIF Digital In
(4) Ch. S/PDIF Digital Out
(2) MIDI Ins & 3 MIDI Outs
(6) 24-bit Bal. Line Inputs
(8) 24-bit Bal. Line Outputs
(2) Mic./Line Preamp Inputs
(2) Turntable Preamp Inputs
(1) Stereo Headphone Out
(4) Computer Speaker Outs
(1) Word Clock In & Out
(1) SMPTE (LTC) In & Out
 
You might look into the Soundcraft Signature USB mixers. The smaller unit has like 12 channels of individual track-to-USB capability, and also solves your monitoring situation with several pre and post aux buses, on-board effects for sweetening the cue mix. Other companies also make small mixers with USB multi-track recording capability. It depends on budget, whether to laptop or desktop. The Mackie Onyx and Presonus 16/4/2 are probably more robust units, but they both operate on Firewire. Which if you wish to use with a recent computer means a desktop with some kind of Firewire card, as it has been a bit since firewire was included on any laptops or desktops. The Presonus Audiobox VSL 1818, which I currently use with an M-Audio 2626 that provides an additional eight channels via lightpipe would be another good option, it has a built-in software mixer that would allow you to do 16 channels of cue mix, with four channels of very nice instrument-level input between the two units. Behringer makes a pretty respectable eight channel unit that would serve instead of the M Audio, also with lightpipe (ADAT) connectivity. Obviously, the more channels available the more options you have, even as i don't typically track ensembles all at once, having a dozen (or more) tracks available for drum tracking is very handy.......
 
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