Drum apps- Fruity Loops etc- What do they do?

ap

Member
I'm wondering if there is a better to way to make drum tracks. I'm currently using Logic to loop record midi and adding each part, one pass at a time, on different tracks, with my keyboard(piano, not typing) controlling a JV-1010. I then cut and paste where it's reused.
  1. Do you use Fruity Loops in a similar manner? I've gathered that it actually uses wav samples, but that's about all I know. I also inferred that it is difficult to record, say, snare and hihat on separate tracks.
  2. Does it have some sort of library of short- like 1 bar- rhythms, riffs, fills, etc. from which to choose? This would probably help me the most.
  3. Can samples be found/recorded better than most sound modules like JV-1010? Just curious. For now I'm happy with the JV sound.
  4. Is it pretty easy to make each section of different rhythms run smoothly into the next?
  5. What other similar apps are there besides Fruity Loops, and what would you recommend?
I don't know anything about drums or fruity loops so please excuse me if I've used the wrong terminology, or if the questions are a little vague.
 
Algorhthm..

Try Algorhythm from http://spacetimefoam.com

It is a true drum machine, but on your computer. The program really shines when you want to place drum notes in specific places, like emulating a drum roll or flam. Fruityloops seems to be stuck to dance-type 4/4 beats. It works wonders for me.

Good luck!
 
Thanks Darkfriend, that one looks pretty user friendly.

Can these programs *import* wav files? For example, I almost always come up w/ rhythm guitar first and then work on drums. I couldn't do this very well unless I could import the guitar track into the app. or play Logic and the drum app at the same time- and I'm almost certain Logic/Delta doesn't allow that.
 
Typically this is the (or "a typical") process:

1) Work the song progression out in your head before you start. Record some scratch mixes without drums, or maybe just with your drum machine. It's often a good idea to be able to play your entire song through on an acoustic guitar, for instance, before starting to record anything. That way you're certain to have a good working knowledge of your new song.

2) Either create a drum track, or create a click track in the drum software you want to use. You need *something* to keep time or it becomes exceptionally hard to use software to create your drum track. Export the drum or click track to a single scratch wave. Remember to include lead-in clicks, and you'll want clicks ANY TIME there is a break in the drums, it'll make your life much easier. It is best to use a seperate sample or track in your drum software for the click, even if you're using the same hi-hat sample from the rest of your song. You'll see why later.

3) Import the drum or click track into your multi-track software, and use it to guide you as you record some portion of the rhythm to get things going, usually bass guitar and rythym guitar. You're now working on the physical song structure, and by the time you're done with this step, you should be happy with the direction your song is taking. This may require repeating steps 1-2 to some extent.

4) Work out more of the drums, each time still exporting a single wave.

5) While perhaps in the process of #4, you'll also be redoing your rhythm tracks. As you change the drums, it will change the dynamics of the song, and will effect the way you want to be playing your various instruments. Maybe add some scratch vocals to see how things fit.

6) Eventually you'll end up with a solid drum track and a good rhythm section. At this point you can start adding your leads and all the gloss. Your still working with the single drum track, but it should be enough to get you there for now.

7) When you start nearing completion of the project, it's time to mix your drums right. Make absolutely sure you're using the right samples for the job, then set each sample to play CENTER and at 100% VOLUME. Then you're going to export each drum to its own wave file so that you can properly mix the drums in with the rest of your song. In fruity, for example, you'll mute all but one of the drums, and do an export. Then you'll mute all but the next drum, and export. And so on and so forth. The reason you used a seperate sample/track for the click is that it's going to be very easy to mute the click track when you start getting close to final mix time. Otherwise you'd have to go in and manually mute the hat (if that's what you used) at the appropriate times...a pain.

To answer your questions:

Yes, almost every drum/sampling software package on the planet that I'm aware of can import wave files. This is one reason why software in the right hands can often kick the crap out of most drum machines. Flexibility and the opportunity to start with better sounds.

Fruity loops is a very static beat oriented editor. It allows you to define infinite "patterns" consisting of one or more samples. You then trigger each sample by clicking a little box representing the appropriate time. So for instance you tell fruity that you want to work with patterns of say 32 (or whatever) beats. Fruity creates a pattern view consisting of the samples you're using, followed by 32 little boxes. You then set the beats per minute, and start selecting boxes which represent sample triggers. It's very straight forward and easy to use, but like somebody already stated in this thread, it's basically limited to that within one song. You can't do time signature changes, which is one thing that most sequencer software packages are lacking. Fruity is a wonderful tool to own though. It has a boat load of great and interesting features, like a piano roll editor. This all works with your predefined samples and does not require MIDI.

Want to hear some fruity examples, visit my website at http://www.slackmaster2000.com and listen to "Monday" and "Thursday". The drums in Monday were done entirely in fruity loops using my own samples. Thursday is a piano piece that was created completely note for note with the fruity loops piano roll editor and some grand piano wave samples I downloaded (there is of course a major lofi effect over the entire piece). I know it's not drums, but maybe it'll give you an idea of what fruity is capable of in the hands of an amature.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Slack, that pretty much sounds like what I do already, except that I don't actually create a click track- I just turn on the Logic metronome. Also, I work entirely in Logic, and it sounds like what you're saying is you have to keep importing/exporting in/out of drum app/multitrack app. I believe I have this sort of thing worked out.

My biggest problem is not how to make the tracks, although this isn't always easy either, but what to PUT IN the tracks. Everything I do is solely based on my assimilation of drums simply from listening to rock all my life. Results have not been failures, I can always come up with something usable, however imperfect they may be. But, it's way more time consumming than I'd like. And while it's always a satisfying experience, I have a lot of ideas I want to develop, and learning to program drums is really slowing me down.

I'd like to have a large catalog of various rock oriented beats to choose from and just go wham!- bass and snare pattern. Wham!- hihats and cymbols on top of that. Wham!-turn around, riff, fill, etc. I know this would be generic, but I'd eventually learn what goes into making the sounds I hear in my head and then come up with my own. Besides, it's not like what I'm coming up with is ground breaking drum work. As it is, sometimes I don't even know if what I need is a snare or tom.

BTW,

DUUDE, I'm very familar with your songs from the mixing clinic. I lurk around from time to time and download maybe a song or two/ month. I'm always on the look-out for your submissions. Sorry for not commenting(this goes to everyone in the clinic) but I don't feel like I know what the hell I'm talking about so I'm usually too shy to say anything. :( Monday is at the top of my mp3 playlist! I've actually been trying to figure out that solo. I'm not to experienced on guitar, so it's a pretty ambitious undertaking for me. I'm not even past the first lick. Maybe this would make a good thread in the guitar clinic! LOL! NO, wait a minute, seriously, ....
 
Gosh, thanks for the compliments, I wasn't expecting that.

I personally think that working with drum patterns is WAY too confining. I'm not a drummer either, and most of the drum tracks I come up with are pretty basic and just sort of sit in the background...but I still need that control over each stroke, not to mention TEMPO! Maybe you should give fruity or some other software a try, just to see what you can do. If anything it's really fun!

About that solo, it was sort of an on the spot thing like most of my solos. I've never had the energy to like compose a solo, so I usually don't really know exactly what's going to come out of the guitar until it's coming out. I sat down and figured out exactly how I played it though just for the heck of it. Root yourself at the 8th fret and stay there in the minor pentatonic for the entire first bit. Then the second bit slides up to the 11th for a quick bit, then back down. I've been stuck in the standard blues scale since I was 14. Oh well, it works here and there. I was trying immitate the feel of that Pavement song "the hexx"...man I wish I had a real fender amp...

Anyways, give fruity or algorhythm a try, even if you don't think they fit your style. Maybe you'll come up with a new style, who knows!

Slackmaster 2000
 
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hey ap,

Are you using the jv1010 with logic delta? Man I tried it and it was horrible.

If you are using a full version, do you have the delta 1010 environment? All I have to do now is click on the 1010 sign on the midi channel, and I have access to all the sounds on the delta right there on my screen.

One thing I like about fruity loops is that the bpm set in it is on time with Logic, so I can do drums in fruity and bring it into Logic.

Fruityloops became ten times more powerful today. I was pointed to a site with free kicks and snares, that import freely into fruity. Man , those kicks are delicious.
 
As the Master of Slack said, you really need to work the drums first, then lay down the guitar, bass, vocals, etc. Trying to put drums on top of an already recorded guitar will be painstakingly difficult.

If you want a sample MP3 of what Algorhythm in the "right" hands can do, lemme know and I'll post an MP3 on the web to listen to. There is no program like it on the web, which I find quite amazing.
 
I have Logic Platinum. I've never used a preconfigured environment. I just put a "autolink" in the environment, and used Soundiver to import all 1000+ patch, performance, and kit names into Logic. Then used "define custom bank select message." I click a midi track, select a bank and program number(click hold) in that window on the left, and a pop-up window shows all the names for a given bank. I can't imagine it being any easier w/o psychokinetic feedback. Well, maybe I'd like to be able to choose from all 8 banks in one window.

Ever used "Groove Templates" in Logic? I've seen it but haven't taken the time yet to figure it out.

http://community.sonikmatter.com/emagic/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=000027
 
whew!

I heaved a sigh of relief when I saw that you are using platinum.

Autolink sounds cool. That means that you can integrate with any synth that is supported by soundiver. I cant use autolink with my oem version of sounddiver, but the predefined banks are extremely easy.

There are a host of things that I dont know about Logic. Groove templates is one of those things. BUt, I am learning everyday.

An advantage of fruity loops, as I mentioned, is that I can now use many kits that did not come on my jv1010. THere are some awesome kicks and snares on the internet that sound much realer than the jv1010. I love the jv1010. I guess it works hand in hand with fruity sounds and samples. Fruity also has a synth built in for making your own tones.
 
Care to list links to any of your favs? You seem to be a stickler for tone. I've already got a bunch of leads thanks to gidge, The Link Meister, from some older threads.
 
BTW mr ap, Slackmaster's approach to working with Fruity is the top flight approach. You can also leave all of Fruity in one track and adjust volume and pan and effects for each component of the beats inside that one track.

Bet you knew that, right?
 
Solo on Monday

I laughed when I heard that solo for the 1st time, the sound right before it reminds me of an intro to some Metallica song then the solo busts out of nowhere and really kicks ass. I like the tone as well. The whole song is great as well but the solo really caught me off guard.
 
I'm also using Logic Platinum 4.7 and feel quiet comfortable with it.
I don't use either JV1010 or Fruity, but i have tried to program drum tracks on my Korg 05r/w long ago. Before i got my first sampler i felt not very happy with my drum parts but i believe this was mainly cause of the clear recorded drums of my korg.
If you use a sample (in fruity or in your sampler), they are often live recorded with natural sounding area or drum computer plus effect unit and they're also mostly well paned.
If you have a mix and your guitar or voice sitting in the center of the 'room', your drum has to be more in the background.
And this leads me to a question: I heard so often, that you never should use reverb and chorus on bass drum and bass, but personally i had a different experience.
So can anyone explain me why i should use the bassdrum dry?:confused: And if some pro uses effects which one and how much reverb or chorus do you prefer?
 
I hear amibience on bass drum all the time. It has to be very well controlled for obvoius reasons though.

The drum presets I've seen on reverbs usually never exceed .8 seconds. the ones I have liked were between .3 and .5. It pushes the drms back from your face without smearing the low end.
 
I feel I have something quite significant to contribute to this topic. I played in a metal band for some time and we would usually save enough $$$ for studiotime, me, I thought "There must be some better way".. I researched all the drum and recording programs I could find, as I wanted to do some solo projects too. My first findings were:

N-track Studio
Cool Edit Pro
DrumStation
The*Drums 1.0

and eventually Fruity Loops became my drum program of choice for quite some time. I liked the flexibility of it, but what eventually got me tired of it was exporting loops and piecing them together, making them all sound the same, cause ya know, I like to tweak and make them better and better right.. I'm a perfectionist. I'm not very organized so I'd lose track of my loop files too.

This past weekend I discovered Cubase VST 5.1 and it will change the way I compose drums and also synth, and do my recording period, for good.

See, what you can do with it is compose drums in MIDI, using the piano roll type interface.. Put one midi drum on each track, set the type as percussion, and route it through a VST drum module, like the LM-4. then make your beat in whatever tempo you need.. if you've recorded your guitars already using something else even, as long as you know the tempo, import it and match tempos. With VST drum modules you can go through a library of realistic samples, change their characteristics, or even import your own. then you can change the sounds or reverbs/effects/eq's of each respective drum at any point during the recording/mixing/mastering process, until you're satisfied with it.

ALSO, you can get the Drumagog drum replacer DX plugin, which works something like hardware drum triggers. Then if you have multisamples, or can record some, you can make multisampled kits and apply the Drumagog plugin to the VST drum track, for either blended sounds or further dynamic control. Use this when realism really matters, like it does to me.

Hope this helps some of you out.
 
blech

I downloaded and tried Algorythm...I really really disliked it...I use Fruityloops for my percussion...at first I thought it was a goofy piece of crap suited only for amatuer electronica rave beatmaking DJ types...but as I got more of my own samples (you can import .wavs) I realised it was a powerfull sequencer...considering you can import any wav you like, and they have a few neat tools on there, like the TS404 (tb-303 copy thingie) and with this new version they have more things to play with...algorythm just seemed like an extremly watered down fruityloops...if I had the algorythm samples I could do everything I did in algorythm and more. Plus fruityloops isn't THAT expensive for what it is...and free if you're a pirate :P ...anyway, I find fruityloops to be a powerfull drum machine/sequencer/instrument...I use it for more than drums...but try not to. hope this helped a little.

-brandon.w
 
Re: blech

I've had the same experience using fruity as you brandon, and I still recommend Cubase highly if you can get a hold of it.. it's superior for flexibility making drum tracks.. I doubt I'll use Fruity much if at all anymore.
 
the problem of having no cash

At the moment I record on an analogue Yamaha MT4X (trying to figure out how I can do it all on my new computer for free...) anyway I got really good sound with fruity loops using some samples piped in from my old Casio keyboard (!)

HOWEVER I have virtually no money at the moment to spend on drums software....and so I only use the *shareware* version of fruity loops

....the BIG problem with this is it only allows 4 samples...which means kick, snare, high hat, and crash.....but what about when I want a thom roll??? :-(

the OTHER problem with fruity loops in general is that you can't seem to get a 3-beats-in-the-bar rhythymn, let alone something more complex....just your basic 4/4 - what if I need a triplet drum roll???? :-( I'm really surprised you guys are recommending it, when to my knowledge it can't do anything other than your basic time signature

I'm not sure if Mystral's suggested "Cubase" is free but I'm guessing no.... :-)

Please help me out guys, and be nice to me - this is my first post in more than a year! (Dragon gives you a nice e-mail to invite you back again after 365 days of absence...)

Thanks in advance :-)

Christian
 
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