16 Channel Mixing desk?
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bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Get something with at least 24 channels if it's an inline desk. Using aux inputs for effects returns works but is limiting. Bring your effects outputs into spare channels on the desk so you can better control eq, panning, routing etc. This also lets you control a delay's repeats by using the desk to manually feed it back to itself.
altruistica
Member
For the money, a Soundcraft Spirit Studio is hard to beat......no EQ switch though (so comparing EQ'd / non EQ'd is hard).
I've just replaced my analogue desk in the studio though with a few Behringer X32 incarnations (the Producer and Rack versions). The X32 is a brilliant live mixer and is proving so adaptable for computer / hard disk /reel to reel tracks. I've yet to fully push it on the MS16 I own...but overall I've been really pleased with the pre-amps and the summing......the other stuff (comps / gates etc on every channel....and very good effects) are just bonuses. Apparently Behringer have already sold over 250,000 units.......I'm not surprised.
I did a session on Sunday using just the X32 Producer, an M-Audio Sputnik mic and Reason running on a touchscreen PC. The X32 comes with the 32 IN/OUT USB card (again a brilliant solution). The track is just piano (coming off Reason Piano Refill) and vocal. It helps that the song is brilliant (a student wrote it, I arranged it) and wonderfully sung, but it's one of the best vocals I've ever recorded. Hope that helps.
Al
I've just replaced my analogue desk in the studio though with a few Behringer X32 incarnations (the Producer and Rack versions). The X32 is a brilliant live mixer and is proving so adaptable for computer / hard disk /reel to reel tracks. I've yet to fully push it on the MS16 I own...but overall I've been really pleased with the pre-amps and the summing......the other stuff (comps / gates etc on every channel....and very good effects) are just bonuses. Apparently Behringer have already sold over 250,000 units.......I'm not surprised.
I did a session on Sunday using just the X32 Producer, an M-Audio Sputnik mic and Reason running on a touchscreen PC. The X32 comes with the 32 IN/OUT USB card (again a brilliant solution). The track is just piano (coming off Reason Piano Refill) and vocal. It helps that the song is brilliant (a student wrote it, I arranged it) and wonderfully sung, but it's one of the best vocals I've ever recorded. Hope that helps.
Al
I use an old studiomaster 20-16-2 desk with my MS16. Having 16 busses is great and the sound is good but it is pretty old now so has quite a lot of crackle on pots etc. Also, there are no mute switches and only two aux sends which is annoying. If you've got the money to spend, the Toft ATB range looks very good.
altruistica
Member
Actually James you've raised a good point here.
I had an old Soundtracs mixer in the studio about a year ago. One of the reasons I sold it was purely because of the age of it. In its day, it was great mixer, but now nearing 20 years old it was showing signs of its age. It's hard enough keeping an old tape recorder running, but add to that an old mixer, and then you're already running into a bit of a diagnostics nightmare when something goes wrong. You may first suspect the patchbay, then the mixer (or its insert points) then the tape recorder's audio card etc......It makes trouble-shooting much harder than if you've got a brand new mixer (be it analogue or digital).
Al
I had an old Soundtracs mixer in the studio about a year ago. One of the reasons I sold it was purely because of the age of it. In its day, it was great mixer, but now nearing 20 years old it was showing signs of its age. It's hard enough keeping an old tape recorder running, but add to that an old mixer, and then you're already running into a bit of a diagnostics nightmare when something goes wrong. You may first suspect the patchbay, then the mixer (or its insert points) then the tape recorder's audio card etc......It makes trouble-shooting much harder than if you've got a brand new mixer (be it analogue or digital).
Al
altruistica
Member
I should add that I wouldn't look at Behringer's larger analogue consoles...I'm thinking of the SX4882 which on paper looked great. In the flesh it was the Behringer of old......cheap and nasty (apart from the meterbridge which was great). I'm betting this mixer was pre- their new facility in China.
I'd also leave well alone the Tascam DM24 which I've owned which was let down by the screen and faders.
I should add that if you're in the UK, I've just put the Allen & Heath GS3000 on Ebay and accepted an offer on it, but the buyer has yet to get in touch. It is the 32 channel version however, so unless you were to pick-up another MS16 and sync boxes (which I have) to run 30 channels of tape simultaneously, the desk may be too big for what you're after.
Al
I'd also leave well alone the Tascam DM24 which I've owned which was let down by the screen and faders.
I should add that if you're in the UK, I've just put the Allen & Heath GS3000 on Ebay and accepted an offer on it, but the buyer has yet to get in touch. It is the 32 channel version however, so unless you were to pick-up another MS16 and sync boxes (which I have) to run 30 channels of tape simultaneously, the desk may be too big for what you're after.
Al
ausrock
Well-known member
I've had a 24 channel Spirit Studio for approx., 12 years with no major problems.....I purchased it second hand so no idea of its real age. I have a Fostex D160 digital recorder and a Tascam ATR-60 1" 16 track R2R which I can synch when needed.
When I got the ATR I stripped the desk down and added a switch to each channel to accomodate the different impedances of the two recorders, also used Caig products to try and clean all pots, jacks and switches.
They're not a high end desk but they have reasonable pre's, a more than usable EQ section and good routing facilities.
When I got the ATR I stripped the desk down and added a switch to each channel to accomodate the different impedances of the two recorders, also used Caig products to try and clean all pots, jacks and switches.
They're not a high end desk but they have reasonable pre's, a more than usable EQ section and good routing facilities.
witzendoz
Senior Member
The reason I asked for a price guide was that without a price guide I could recommend a SSL, Neve, or a Behringer. If you want something that sounds nice and price is about mid range, have a look at TOFT gear.
There is also plenty of old Tascam consoles of various models, I have a M3700 (since new), you will pick up a 32 channel fairly cheap, or if you want a smaller physical size try a M2524 (which I also own). Old Soundcraft and Allen & heath sound good.
It's hard to give recommendations without a price guide? Remember to get a studio console as live consoles wont fit the studio requirements.
Alan.
There is also plenty of old Tascam consoles of various models, I have a M3700 (since new), you will pick up a 32 channel fairly cheap, or if you want a smaller physical size try a M2524 (which I also own). Old Soundcraft and Allen & heath sound good.
It's hard to give recommendations without a price guide? Remember to get a studio console as live consoles wont fit the studio requirements.
Alan.
Thanks Allan. I really like those Tascams. I like the TOFTS as well, but those seem to be on the higher end of my price range. Which is really anything $1500-$2000 and under. I also discovered the Tascam M-520 console. Anyone know anything about those bad boys? Thanks!!
Chase.
Chase.
I have two mixers one for tracking and one for mixing.
For mixing I love the Sony MXP line from the 80's. You can buy these mixers cheap cheap these days.
Low noise spec really well for mixing, and they have great EQs with smooth yet powerful highs, a
clear, clean mid section to die for. You can literally push the mids on these mixers so much without sounding harsh!! Creamy punchy lows.. I'd scope one just for the EQ alone! Sony always made amazing, I repeat amazing audio gear! and the MXP line, from the home audio/video oriented 12 channel MXP- S390 to the big dog MXP 3000 are amazing boards.
The only thing is with Sony, some of the parts are difficult to get these days, some folks say proprietary, but buying $7,000-17,000 mixers for $200- $2000 bucks is a chance I am willing to take over and over again. IMHO of course.
For tracking I am huge fan of the Panasonic Ramsa WR and WRS mixers. Great preamps, direct outs and fat punchy sound. The EQ's are not great. But for tracking you can't beat them at their current value. you can buy a Ramsa for about $300. Best of luck to you. Lastly sorry about my English skill set.
For mixing I love the Sony MXP line from the 80's. You can buy these mixers cheap cheap these days.
Low noise spec really well for mixing, and they have great EQs with smooth yet powerful highs, a
clear, clean mid section to die for. You can literally push the mids on these mixers so much without sounding harsh!! Creamy punchy lows.. I'd scope one just for the EQ alone! Sony always made amazing, I repeat amazing audio gear! and the MXP line, from the home audio/video oriented 12 channel MXP- S390 to the big dog MXP 3000 are amazing boards.
The only thing is with Sony, some of the parts are difficult to get these days, some folks say proprietary, but buying $7,000-17,000 mixers for $200- $2000 bucks is a chance I am willing to take over and over again. IMHO of course.
For tracking I am huge fan of the Panasonic Ramsa WR and WRS mixers. Great preamps, direct outs and fat punchy sound. The EQ's are not great. But for tracking you can't beat them at their current value. you can buy a Ramsa for about $300. Best of luck to you. Lastly sorry about my English skill set.
B
Beck
Guest
With 16 tracks something with 8 buss would be handy. Here are a few of my favs.
Tascam M-520 (20 channel 8 buss)
Studiomaster Mixdown Classic 8-24 (24 channels and 8 buss)
Tascam M-320 (Only 4 buss, but I really like the sound of this board)
Tascam M-520 (20 channel 8 buss)
Studiomaster Mixdown Classic 8-24 (24 channels and 8 buss)
Tascam M-320 (Only 4 buss, but I really like the sound of this board)
witzendoz
Senior Member
I would not worry about the buss so much, but 8 will be good. What you really need is direct outs on every channel. If you can, go for a 32 channel, this will mean you can monitor on 16 channels while recording via the remaining 16, nice way to work. Some inline consoles are good too, but most don't offer eq etc, on the in line monitor returns. Also gives plenty of channels for mixdown. Believe it or not I often run out of channels on mix-down, however I am using a 24 track.
What will really dictate what you get will be price and space available to put it. For example my M3700 is approx W; 53.6" / H; 12" / D; 37.5" Weight 155 lbs.
You know when I had the MSR16 as my main recorder we did some great recordings using the Tascam M2524, this console also has midi muting and scene control built in.
Alan.
ausrock
Well-known member
Not just direct outs but also tape ins........the S/craft Spirit Studio has XLR mic ins, line ins, inserts, direct outs and tape ins on every channel. If you need to split the channels during mixdown to cater for the number of incoming tracks, the EQ section splits to give usable EQ facilites.
Alternatives to S/craft are Sound Workshop, studio specific A&H and Soundtracs.
Alternatives to S/craft are Sound Workshop, studio specific A&H and Soundtracs.
B
Beck
Guest
Direct outs can be useful, but if you have to choose (which ideally we shouldn't) program buss outs are more important for recording/mixdown applications. Program busses are there so you can record more than one source to a track. For example, you may have several instruments you need to record in stereo. You assign those channels to program buss 1 & 2 and feed the mix to tracks 1 & 2 of the recorder. You can't do that with direct outs. You can get by without direct outs by assigning a single channel to a program buss and feed that to a single track on the recorder.
On mixdown, program busses come in very handy. you can get by with 4 program busses, but 8 buss is better for grouping like instruments together. for example assigning all the drum tracks to two program busses so you can more easily raise and lower the level of the drum mix without having to fiddle with all the main faders on the drum tracks. Same goes for multiple synth parts, rhythm guitars, backing vocals, etc. It's a very efficient way to mix.
Roozter
New member
Not to knock the X32, but I got the chance to mix live with one and wouldn't buy for it for studio work. More bells and whistles than board IMHO. You could probably find a used Teac/ Tascam board for cheaper, and it would probably be more compatible as well. I also get the feeling that the pres on the old teac stuff might blow behringers away, just from my overall experience with both product lines.
altruistica
Member
It does all depend what other gear you have in the studio. I have a TL Audio 5051 mic pre, a Focusrite Platinum thingy (two pres in a 2U unit), two TFPro P3 pres, which I'm going to use more and go straight into the tape recorders ins....just to see what kind of sound I get. I have been really impressed with the X32 summing though....as a digital mixer it really does have a 'warm' sound....none of the brittleness that is associated with digital......and an awful lot of headroom.....but I haven't done enough mixing of newly recorded stuff especially from tape to make any long-term definitive decision. I would add though, the sound which one person likes in any mixer, analogue or digital, maybe contrary to someone else. All mixers seem to have their own signature sound which you only gleam from working with them on contrasting stuff.
Al