Update on ATR Magnetics Master Tape

SteveMac said:
Beck did you ever happen to, in the past write for Andy Rooney? :D




:D Good one!

:D And just wait... I'm not remotely old enough to be a crabby old man yet... That's yet to come. :eek:

I still yield to the silver haired, because I know one day I’ll be smacking young wippersnappers with my cane. :)
 
Beck said:
:D And just wait... I'm not remotely old enough to be a crabby old man yet... That's yet to come. :eek:

:)

:D No, I know. It was just an entertaining mix on people, life and consumer goods.
 
SteveMac said:
:D No, I know. It was just an entertaining mix on people, life and consumer goods.

Yeah, I got ya... Rooney is chicken soup for the soul, to those of us who resent paying for a Pepsi and getting a cup full of mostly ice. ;)

Anyway, as for me at this time, I also rely heavily on my wit and intellect... so I'm looking forward to having the cane. :)
 

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Beck said:
16 tracks equal more hiss because you have 16 individual circuits contributing to the cumulative noise figure, as opposed to two on a half-track mastering deck. There are other factors such as track width and circuit design, but all things being equal, more tracks equals more hiss.

I highly recommend giving Quantegy 406 a try on something like the E-16 or MSR-16, if you want to get that classic tape saturation without giving your NR a conniption.

I don’t recommend GP9 at high levels w/out NR on that track width because your electronics will clip before tape compression and crosstalk would be unacceptable.

All things being right, a good 2" pro deck will have almost no hiss with 24 tracks blazing (if set up right) with no noise reduction. Those 1/2" decks are hobby machines and are not capable of any clean sound without dolby or DBX. The small 1/2" machines were decent for their time and allowed the home musician to record multi-track for far less money. That is what they were designed for, and that is all they were good for. GP9 is fine for any machine that can put out the gain that this tape requires. I have an E-16 running fine with GP9 and only had the initial trouble with biasing to contend with. Many older 1/2" decks cannot handle the higher bias currents and also the erase currents. Some will not entirely erase the GP9 tape.
 
MCI2424 said:
All things being right, a good 2" pro deck will have almost no hiss with 24 tracks blazing (if set up right) with no noise reduction. Those 1/2" decks are hobby machines and are not capable of any clean sound without dolby or DBX. The small 1/2" machines were decent for their time and allowed the home musician to record multi-track for far less money. That is what they were designed for, and that is all they were good for. GP9 is fine for any machine that can put out the gain that this tape requires. I have an E-16 running fine with GP9 and only had the initial trouble with biasing to contend with. Many older 1/2" decks cannot handle the higher bias currents and also the erase currents. Some will not entirely erase the GP9 tape.

You are mostly correct, but perhaps missed the "all things being equal" in my post. There will be a measurable increase in tape hiss if you are using all 24 tracks over using say just 12. Meaning, in a quiet passage 24 tracks bring more noise to the table than 12. Whether or not this will be humanly perceptable by average ears, the true measurement of signal-to-noise will change.

This is because each element in a multitrack head is an independent system and contributes its own noise, regardless of how great or little that is on a given machine, so the effect is cumulative.

In other words each track has its own channel card with its own resistors, transistors and op-amps, each contributing to noise.

Absolutely… machines will very greatly.
 
MCI2424 said:
Those 1/2" decks are hobby machines and are not capable of any clean sound without dolby or DBX. The small 1/2" machines were decent for their time and allowed the home musician to record multi-track for far less money. That is what they were designed for, and that is all they were good for.


Are you saying that using one of these machines, a very experienced engineer would be uncapable of turning out a recording that rivals a 2" recording as far as listenability?
 
Well, he does have a good point about the inherent limitations of 1/2" 8 track, and a professional studio with any brains would get a pro-deck if they wanted to use analog tape.

But if all you had to work with was 1/2" 8 track, it just takes a different approach than when you're dealing with a 2" 24 tracker. You have to plan you entire production process from the getgo, because you are limited in your number of tracks.

A good engineer knows exactly what tracks to bounce when, and how to get the most out of a 1/2" 8 track IF that's all he had to work with.
 
I'd say you could at least outdo an Oasis recording and that digital mess, with a 1/2" tape deck. ;)

Don't get me wrong though. I do like Oasis.
 
FALKEN said:
Are you saying that using one of these machines, a very experienced engineer would be uncapable of turning out a recording that rivals a 2" recording as far as listenability?

Running straight, no noise reduction, not possible to compare the two. Lisenability is totally subjective. I have owned them all and a 2" is a totally different animal. Until you use one regularly, you will have no idea how much the home machines suck in comparison.

Lastly, there have been many albums put out on all formats in history. If what you say was true, there would never have been a 2" deck sold. No one would have cared if they were that close in sound.

Your argument is lame at best (but fits most appropriately here at this forum)
 
Muckelroy said:
Well, he does have a good point about the inherent limitations of 1/2" 8 track, and a professional studio with any brains would get a pro-deck if they wanted to use analog tape.

But if all you had to work with was 1/2" 8 track, it just takes a different approach than when you're dealing with a 2" 24 tracker. You have to plan you entire production process from the getgo, because you are limited in your number of tracks.

A good engineer knows exactly what tracks to bounce when, and how to get the most out of a 1/2" 8 track IF that's all he had to work with.

Why such a well reasoned post?

I am shocked.
 
Beck said:
You are mostly correct, but perhaps missed the "all things being equal" in my post. There will be a measurable increase in tape hiss if you are using all 24 tracks over using say just 12. Meaning, in a quiet passage 24 tracks bring more noise to the table than 12. Whether or not this will be humanly perceptable by average ears, the true measurement of signal-to-noise will change.

This is because each element in a multitrack head is an independent system and contributes its own noise, regardless of how great or little that is on a given machine, so the effect is cumulative.

In other words each track has its own channel card with its own resistors, transistors and op-amps, each contributing to noise.

Absolutely… machines will very greatly.

Absolutely true. The big machines are pretty scary in how quiet they run though.
 
MCI2424 said:
. If what you say was true, there would never have been a 2" deck sold.
Your argument is lame at best (but fits most appropriately here at this forum)

I didn't notice any argument??

Secondly, the reason why someone would need a 2" deck is for more tracks not neccessarily for better quality, so your argument is lame at best.

It's seems to me that there is really not a whole lot of illusioned people hanging around here like you seem to think. Just musicians trying to make the best of what they have. Coming around here bragging that you have a 2" dick is starting to get pretty boring now. Must you be so vain?
 
SteveMac said:
Coming around here bragging that you have a 2" dick is starting to get pretty boring now.
Bragging would not be so bad as pretending is. :D
Hey, MCI, prove it! Show "poor people" what'cha got ;)
 
MCI2424 said:
Lastly, there have been many albums put out on all formats in history. If what you say was true, there would never have been a 2" deck sold. No one would have cared if they were that close in sound.

Your argument is lame at best (but fits most appropriately here at this forum)

I made no argument; I only asked for clarification. But thanks for the insult anyway. :cool:

It is my belief, however, that 2" machines still would have been sold. Say, for the sake of argument, that there was absolutely no quality difference between a "consumer" 1/2" deck and a "pro" 2" deck. The major recording companies would have needed a way to create barriers to entry into the market, in order to protect their market shares. To do this, they could have created magnificent budgets for themselves, which could never have been matched by competitors, thus creating and perpetutating that barrier. One of the barriers that was actully constructed was an exclusive distribution network. which is all but quickly fading away since the major companies in the last decades have sabotaged their own model by hyping up digital media.
 
Nice "blister"! :)....

FALKEN said:
One of the barriers that was actully constructed was an exclusive distribution network. which is all but quickly fading away since the major companies in the last decades have sabotaged their own model by hyping up digital media.
...to the rear of a snob. :p
Also, let us not to forget how the "hyping" was executed. Remember?: "You can do this on Mac only!" If it's not ProTools on Mac - you are not a pro ... You gotta have the barrier in every area. ;)

/later
 
MCI2424 said:
If what you say was true, there would never have been a 2" deck sold.

It's there to get more tracks while keeping track width reasonable.

A 1/4" full track or 1/2"/1" 4 track would beat your 2", 24 track MCI pants down sonically, provided all other variables such as speed and electronics were similar. Tape width is not the sole indicator of quality. In fact, it means absolutely nothing. Your argument doesn't hold water.
 
What Daniel said is correct, and following that reasoning let me add a couple words… ;)

A 2-inch what? That should be the first question. -- 8, 16, 24, 32?

2-inch is the width of the tape. How we divide that tape into individual tracks is another matter.

Here are a few things to consider for perspective:

- Noise reduction (NR) was designed for and introduced to the professional recording world first with Dolby A. It wasn’t until three years after, a dumbed down version we all know as Dolby B was made available to consumers. NR addressed the tape hiss issue in the largest studios with the finest equipment long before the word semi-pro was spoken. Both dbx and Dolby could (and still can) be found in the finest studios still using analog. Improvements in noise reduction for professional use continued until the end of the analog era, culminating with Dolby SR (1986) and Dolby S (1990).

Ironically (considering the “pro” 2-inch machine mentioned in this discussion) the only monster outboard Dolby unit I ever worked with was a 24-channel Dolby A rack being used with a 2-inch 24-track. Dolby A or SR with 2-inch 24-track was widely used in pro studios that could afford it. The use of NR is really a judgment call, and depends largely on the type of music being recorded. But to say “pro” machines don’t need NR in every case is just wrong. Likewise saying they do need it in every case is wrong.

- 24-tracks on 2-inch was/is considered “narrow track” compared to the old standard of 16 on 2-inch. It was a compromise between fidelity and number of tracks. Otari even introduced 32-track on 2”, but rather late in the game. Though not widely adopted, it was still found in a number of pro studios as the dawn of the digital age was upon us.

- Tracks aren’t spaced the same for all tape widths. 24-track on 2-inch has virtually the same track width as 8-track on ½-inch. Tascam’s track width for the 38, TSR-8, etc is 0.039 inches. The standard 24-track on 2-inch is 0.040 inches. The difference is about the thickness of 1-mil tape. So the argument here is not fat tracks, but rather more tracks. 24 on 2-inch was born out of a need for more tracks not greater fidelity.


As for ½” machines being “hobby machines” I couldn’t disagree more. I’ve used even the lowly 4-track cassette with outstanding results. Far too many professionals have used ½-inch 8 and 16 tracks with truly excellent results. The Fostex E-16 in particular is a living legend. Many a project studio was built around this recorder… Graham Nash even recorded the “American Dream” album on his personal E-16. Walter Becker (Steely Dan) had both the E-16 and E-2 half-track in his home studio in Maui.

Tom scholz laid down the tracks for Boston’s debut album on an old, second-hand Scully 284 1-inch 12-track, and bounced tracks like crazy. Some of the parts on “More Than a Feeling” had been through 3-4 generations. He also owned a TEAC 80-8, (though I don’t know how it was used)… as did the group Kansas.

Bruce Springsteen put down the basic tracks to “Nebraska” (1982) on the original TEAC 144 cassette portastudio, with Dolby B no less. Whatever post-sweetening was done in the studio, the fact remains those tracks recorded at his home are on that album. So the final product you’re hearing began on a 4-track cassette.

I’ve worked with 4-track cassette portastudios, 2” 24-track, ½-inch 16-track, ½-inch 8 track (Tascams and Otaris) and ¼-inch 8 track. I have found no insurmountable limitations with any of these formats. However, there’s no magic in any of them either if there’s no magic in you.

Others that have worked with so-called semi-pro machines include Todd Rundgren, Steve Winwood, and Phil Collins… to name a few.

The terms “Pro”, “Semi-pro”, and “Pro-sumer” are rather ambiguous and may have nothing to do with fidelity in the context they are used. A so-called semi-pro machine can spec out and sound every bit as good as a pro unit. It’s called semi-pro because it operates at a nominal –10 dBv line level rather than +4, and is simply not built for the rigors of a 24/7 working studio.

A pro machine will also have easy accessibility for calibration, which is done weekly, if not daily in a busy commercial studio. These things distinguish pro and semi-pro more than sound quality. But just as with mega-buck 2-inch monstrosities, not all semi-pro narrow format machines are created equal. Just as an Ampex or Studer snob will look down his nose at anything made by Sony (MCI), we all have our favorite semi-pro brands and models as well.

A home or small commercial studio just doesn’t need a monster 2-inch machine to make good music. In fact, I wouldn’t have one. I simply loath lugging around 2” reels of tape. I just don’t care to do that again… ever! Not to mention the cost of tape.

If we were having this conversation in 1966 rather than 2006, track width would be much more significant. Advancements in electronics and head design that made ever-narrowing tracks practical have consigned track width to just another variable in the equation. It’s an important variable, but it’s not make or break for the machines we’ve discussed here.

My TSR-8/MIDI hybrid studio is more than adequate for my needs. There’s nothing that TSR-8 can’t do – including capturing every nuance my wife’s angelic, classically trained coloratura soprano voice. It wouldn’t sound any more or less “hauntingly beautiful” :) on a 2-inch 24-track.

If I were to upgrade my personal studio down the road I’ll never use more than 1” tape. A Fostex G-24 or Tascam MSR-24 could be in my future, but anything more is just overkill. I don’t need to surround myself things that say “Pro” to prove anything to myself or anyone else.

Besides, if my wife ever saw me rolling a JH-24 up the drive she’d be really pissed off when she realized it wasn’t a new dishwasher.

Anyway, 2-inch means absolutely nothing without further elaboration – how many tracks? What brand? What model? 30 or 15 ips? What kind of music is being recorded? And most importantly… who’s at the controls?

Pro and semi-pro may be neatly divided in recording 101 college classes and textbooks, but in the real world it’s much more complex. Thus, it’s pretty easy to tell those that have spent some years recording (home or professionally) and those that have just read about it… or possibly those that have mastered the fundamentals of recording and those that are just no good, no matter how much time they’ve spent with it.
 
SteveMac said:
I didn't notice any argument??

Secondly, the reason why someone would need a 2" deck is for more tracks not neccessarily for better quality, so your argument is lame at best.

It's seems to me that there is really not a whole lot of illusioned people hanging around here like you seem to think. Just musicians trying to make the best of what they have. Coming around here bragging that you have a 2" dick is starting to get pretty boring now. Must you be so vain?

If you think that the sound quality of a pro 2" deck is on par with a 1/2" 16 track, you are deluded and have never heard a big machine. A common mistake.
 
Beck said:
What Daniel said is correct, and following that reasoning let me add a couple words… ;)

A 2-inch what? That should be the first question. -- 8, 16, 24, 32?

2-inch is the width of the tape. How we divide that tape into individual tracks is another matter.

Here are a few things to consider for perspective:

- Noise reduction (NR) was designed for and introduced to the professional recording world first with Dolby A. It wasn’t until three years after, a dumbed down version we all know as Dolby B was made available to consumers. NR addressed the tape hiss issue in the largest studios with the finest equipment long before the word semi-pro was spoken. Both dbx and Dolby could (and still can) be found in the finest studios still using analog. Improvements in noise reduction for professional use continued until the end of the analog era, culminating with Dolby SR (1986) and Dolby S (1990).

Ironically (considering the “pro” 2-inch machine mentioned in this discussion) the only monster outboard Dolby unit I ever worked with was a 24-channel Dolby A rack being used with a 2-inch 24-track. Dolby A or SR with 2-inch 24-track was widely used in pro studios that could afford it. The use of NR is really a judgment call, and depends largely on the type of music being recorded. But to say “pro” machines don’t need NR in every case is just wrong. Likewise saying they do need it in every case is wrong.

- 24-tracks on 2-inch was/is considered “narrow track” compared to the old standard of 16 on 2-inch. It was a compromise between fidelity and number of tracks. Otari even introduced 32-track on 2”, but rather late in the game. Though not widely adopted, it was still found in a number of pro studios as the dawn of the digital age was upon us.

- Tracks aren’t spaced the same for all tape widths. 24-track on 2-inch has virtually the same track width as 8-track on ½-inch. Tascam’s track width for the 38, TSR-8, etc is 0.039 inches. The standard 24-track on 2-inch is 0.040 inches. The difference is about the thickness of 1-mil tape. So the argument here is not fat tracks, but rather more tracks. 24 on 2-inch was born out of a need for more tracks not greater fidelity.


As for ½” machines being “hobby machines” I couldn’t disagree more. I’ve used even the lowly 4-track cassette with outstanding results. Far too many professionals have used ½-inch 8 and 16 tracks with truly excellent results. The Fostex E-16 in particular is a living legend. Many a project studio was built around this recorder… Graham Nash even recorded the “American Dream” album on his personal E-16. Walter Becker (Steely Dan) had both the E-16 and E-2 half-track in his home studio in Maui.

Tom scholz laid down the tracks for Boston’s debut album on an old, second-hand Scully 284 1-inch 12-track, and bounced tracks like crazy. Some of the parts on “More Than a Feeling” had been through 3-4 generations. He also owned a TEAC 80-8, (though I don’t know how it was used)… as did the group Kansas.

Bruce Springsteen put down the basic tracks to “Nebraska” (1982) on the original TEAC 144 cassette portastudio, with Dolby B no less. Whatever post-sweetening was done in the studio, the fact remains those tracks recorded at his home are on that album. So the final product you’re hearing began on a 4-track cassette.

I’ve worked with 4-track cassette portastudios, 2” 24-track, ½-inch 16-track, ½-inch 8 track (Tascams and Otaris) and ¼-inch 8 track. I have found no insurmountable limitations with any of these formats. However, there’s no magic in any of them either if there’s no magic in you.

Others that have worked with so-called semi-pro machines include Todd Rundgren, Steve Winwood, and Phil Collins… to name a few.

The terms “Pro”, “Semi-pro”, and “Pro-sumer” are rather ambiguous and may have nothing to do with fidelity in the context they are used. A so-called semi-pro machine can spec out and sound every bit as good as a pro unit. It’s called semi-pro because it operates at a nominal –10 dBv line level rather than +4, and is simply not built for the rigors of a 24/7 working studio.

A pro machine will also have easy accessibility for calibration, which is done weekly, if not daily in a busy commercial studio. These things distinguish pro and semi-pro more than sound quality. But just as with mega-buck 2-inch monstrosities, not all semi-pro narrow format machines are created equal. Just as an Ampex or Studer snob will look down his nose at anything made by Sony (MCI), we all have our favorite semi-pro brands and models as well.

A home or small commercial studio just doesn’t need a monster 2-inch machine to make good music. In fact, I wouldn’t have one. I simply loath lugging around 2” reels of tape. I just don’t care to do that again… ever! Not to mention the cost of tape.

If we were having this conversation in 1966 rather than 2006, track width would be much more significant. Advancements in electronics and head design that made ever-narrowing tracks practical have consigned track width to just another variable in the equation. It’s an important variable, but it’s not make or break for the machines we’ve discussed here.

My TSR-8/MIDI hybrid studio is more than adequate for my needs. There’s nothing that TSR-8 can’t do – including capturing every nuance my wife’s angelic, classically trained coloratura soprano voice. It wouldn’t sound any more or less “hauntingly beautiful” :) on a 2-inch 24-track.

If I were to upgrade my personal studio down the road I’ll never use more than 1” tape. A Fostex G-24 or Tascam MSR-24 could be in my future, but anything more is just overkill. I don’t need to surround myself things that say “Pro” to prove anything to myself or anyone else.

Besides, if my wife ever saw me rolling a JH-24 up the drive she’d be really pissed off when she realized it wasn’t a new dishwasher.

Anyway, 2-inch means absolutely nothing without further elaboration – how many tracks? What brand? What model? 30 or 15 ips? What kind of music is being recorded? And most importantly… who’s at the controls?

Pro and semi-pro may be neatly divided in recording 101 college classes and textbooks, but in the real world it’s much more complex. Thus, it’s pretty easy to tell those that have spent some years recording (home or professionally) and those that have just read about it… or possibly those that have mastered the fundamentals of recording and those that are just no good, no matter how much time they’ve spent with it.

Track width has nothing whatsoever to do with sound quality. The electronics and transport have everything to do with sound quality. A pro 2" 24 track deck is far better in every aspect than a home recording deck period. You are only deluding yourself if you think differently. This is what I can't stand about your opinions. I have nothing to say bad about the type of recording machines that you guys use. I have 2 Fostex 16 track 1/2" machines that I use for pre-production. I do find so many comments laughable when you try to compare pro decks to home recording decks. It just shows you have no experience at all with the bigger machines. Get on a 2" machine and you will hear a huge difference. Talking about track width etc. sound good on paper, but holds little weight in reality.
 
Beck said:
... following that reasoning let me add a couple words… ;) .
those were rather very long haired and fat couple of words... :D :D :D
Beck said:
I don’t need to surround myself things that say “Pro” to prove anything to myself or anyone else..
but that's because you are not obligated to serve anybody nor to hook anybody on. Some (or say way too many!) producers are tied by such obligation...and what do they have to do?, when they hear :" Titles! I want Titles! I demand Titles! Show me some Titles! ..heh heh , or I'm outa' here!" LOL :p
Beck said:
Pro and semi-pro may be neatly divided in recording 101 college classes and textbooks, but in the real world it’s much more complex. Thus, it’s pretty easy to tell those that have spent some years recording (home or professionally) and those that have just read about it… or possibly those that have mastered the fundamentals of recording and those that are just no good, no matter how much time they’ve spent with it.
Great paragraph!
Or may I say: ... in the real world it’s much more simple. :rolleyes: and... Thus, it’s pretty easy to tell those that no longer! able to name a bad gear (any gear will do the right thing in the hand of a master) and those that only "know" what gear is great (she knows her sh*t - that hot car - is all she's got).
:p
 
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