thought i'd try new digital - WRONG

reel buzzer

New member
Silly me.
Since I had to get a new mac for home business anyway,
I thought that a Focusrite Saffire firewire interface would sound good.
Wrong.
I'm returning it today.
The converters killed much of the stereo space and headroom.

What is interesting is that I use the old Digidesign 882 interface from 1994.
At 44.1 khz it sound exactly like the bus signal before it leaves the mixer.
Focusrite Saffire at 96 khz sounds like dog doo doo.

I guess Digidesign put a lot more engineering into their interface in 1994, they were just coming out then and really wanted to impress the industry.

What's even more sickening is the software these days.
This thing came with Cubase. Has so many buttons and is very clumsy to record, doesn't do exactly what I want it to do , which is just to act as a recording box with ins and outs and let me use my mixer to control and sound in different channels.
But the old Digidesign Session 8 software had it right from the beginning.
This software is so simple it comes on 1 floppy disk.
It has 2 mix modes, INTERNAL & EXTERNAL.
I'll use INTERNAL mix mode for bouncing digitally.
But mostly keep it on EXTERNAL mix mode for mixdown from reel-to-reel tape.
And its so simple, I just pan the software mixer 1,3,5,7 to the left,
and 2,4,6,8 to the right and presto, works like studios worked before computer bull.
Why are the other new softwares like Cubase and Cakewalk so complicated?
I don't get it.

Anyway what I am saying is, I thought that computer recording had come a long way for low price stuff, and that maybe it would be equal to something that I bought back in 1994 for $3000.
WRONG!!

I just don't know how much longer I can keep the old Mac Quadra 840 working.

Does anyone know about a firewire interface that actually sounds good these days?
 
reel buzzer said:
Does anyone know about a firewire interface that actually sounds good these days?
Somehow this doesn't seem like the ideal forum for that question.

Just out of curiosity, did you try the Saffire at 44.1 kHz, or 48kHz? It could be that 96 kHz was too much for your system to handle. More likely it just exacerbated any jitter issues that were already present. The timing tolerances are much tighter at 96 kHz, and thus it's more difficult to achieve the required stability (so I've heard -- I'm not by any means an expert in this area).

I do not have a firewire audio interface, but I've heard good things about RME: http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--RMEFIREFACE

Regarding your comments about the state of audio software: I do think there's a market for (pardon the expression) "dumbed down" packages with limited capabilities; but the real focus these days seems to be on the higher end packages that are something like a swiss army knife. The first time I saw a large Neve console, I was somewhat bewildered; but soon I came to appreciate the capabilities it provided at the cost of all that complexity. It's worth investing the time to learn to use the tool.

Don
 
Thanks for your reply.

Yes I tried all of the sample rates. Really sounds like crap.

Yes the bells in software may help some people, but I do all that stuff with outboard gear.
I'd love to see a dumbed down software that is easy to work with as Digidesign Session 8.

This is in analog because I record to tape.

What about getting an old pro model Panasonic DAT recorder from ebay for mixdown and just a firewire interface to get the digital signal into computer for CD burning? Do you think that option might work best for me?
 
reel buzzer said:
What about getting an old pro model Panasonic DAT recorder from ebay for mixdown and just a firewire interface to get the digital signal into computer for CD burning? Do you think that option might work best for me?
Seems like all you would need in that case is something with either AES/EBU or S/PDIF connectivity. That shouldn't be too hard to find.

In fact, you might find that your Saffire works great in that application. But I guess you're wasting money if it has capabilities you don't use. Here's one that would probably work OK, for $170: http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--MDOFWAP2496. Even that has A/D conversion onboard, so there may be something out there that's even cheaper.

Don
 
I'm not big on Focusrite in any of their configurations. Clones or otherwise. At the low end price point, the Echo audiofire interfaces are nice. I've used both versions of those although I still primarily opt for pci.

You didn't really mention your budget, but the Apogees with 002r is nice if you're on Protools.

I've been using Cubase since the early 80s when it was simply a midi sequencer. To me, it is a very very good program and even though my main programs nowadays are Nuendo and Protools, Cubase is built on a lot of years of development and there is no need to learn "all" the buttons/screens. Just the part that you need to work with.

The first pure audio daw app I bought was Saw back in 1994. It was pretty cool for a 16bit app at the time. But of course all our cards were 16bit cards with first generation convertors back in those days.

To my ears, cards/convertors/software have made a quantum leap in the past 6 years, mostly due to integration of 32 bit os/apps/hardware. The 24 bit 44.1/48 integration is pretty good nowadays at the high end. Lots of great stuff out there imo.

96k-192 based stuff is still open to all the arguments, and that will get more focused as we move into the next 18 months with (at least on the pc side) Vista/8 core systems/massive ram increases/64 bit slots etc. Apple/Microsoft/Intel are taking us into some very very cool territory for audio/video production and everything else. We're heading into some very exciting times ahead.

I started on tape many years ago and I still use tape. I still often do tape tracking and then dump to daws. I mix in the box and I mix through analog consoles. I just think the choices and lack of boundaries in recording is simply ...beautiful!

With all this equipment available, I'd recommend you just keep getting different brands of things to try with your Mac until you find something you like. However, I wouldn't judge the progress of the industry based on Focusrite stuff. Focusrite is not exactly rated at the top of the pile.
 
echo layla PCI sounds good to me. still not great but as good of digital as I've heard. Sonar is pretty easy as well for outboard or ITB mixing. but these are both products that are also old...tried and true.
 
reel buzzer said:
What is interesting is that I use the old Digidesign 882 interface from 1994.
At 44.1 khz it sound exactly like the bus signal before it leaves the mixer.
Focusrite Saffire at 96 khz sounds like dog doo doo.
........Anyway what I am saying is, I thought that computer recording had come a long way for low price stuff, and that maybe it would be equal to something that I bought back in 1994 for $3000.
WRONG!!

I just don't know how much longer I can keep the old Mac Quadra 840 working.
is 882 out of support, meaning you can not use it on any new(er) Mac. I looked at digidesign's site... that's what it looks like.
Also do you have/use PC/W-XP ? I don't have mac so really have no freaking' clue :o What I am talking here is, that I have audiomedia-III card (yeah back from good ol' early nineties :eek: heh heh) , and I've managed to install it to newer PC/W-XP system with driver that available from didi-site... well, it worked just fine with Sonar and sh*t :D I've said worked because I've got it out and stuffed it back into my old w-95 computer which still runs ;) and I keep it specifically for one and only task - in case I need to use old version of SF CD-Architect (I refuse to give couple hundered bucks to f*ng Sony for CD-A-5!!! :mad: ), which works just fine, but can work only with the CD-R drive I have on that system (Pentium-120/32MB RAM - heh heh ...what more do you need? :p )
So AM-III card sounds "great" - just as "great" as I would expect the card to sound like. I wonder if 882 sounds similar ;)
So, well, this may be a sort of "alternative" idea for you ... you can find AM-III card on e-bay for under 100 bucks or even less. Now, would it be waste of money? - probably it will :D
I think if you are picky on how your computer interface sounds - maybe trying some sand-alone machine and use it just as A/D converter and then going into digital in of what ever card you have ... this maybe an option too. It's kind of freaky way, I'd say... I mean how many used machines can you buy'n'try ... they all will sound (as D/A-C) somewhat different, I guess, but how different? It may drive you totally nuts when trying to decide for sure which one is better.

oh, and as for "packages" - it SUCKS! :mad: , sorry for being too loud ;) , but I really think so, I don't mind "packages", what I do mind is that all that "crap" is being forced on you, and then you have sit in front of damn 19" monitor or larger.... trying to get some space there so you can do what recording software should do, trying to clear up the screen....but those f*ng options and tools just would not go away, damn-it! LOL :D
....

/respects
 
After trying to identify what is in the digidesign 882 i/o interface with nubus card mac,

that is different from the firewire toys,

the one thing I notice is digidesign has 1-bit delta sigma on the A/D. And the nubus card is about 11 inches long full of computer chips.

I'm thinking now not to trust the advertisements for these low cost firewire converters.

What is the solution for about $500 or maybe a little more to mix down from analog to digital stereo?

Maybe not do anything because I just fired the old sustem up again today and works great. I'll A/B between the computer and the bus and they are EXACTLY the same.
 
wait a minute... :confused:
can't you use your 882i/o as stand alone a/d converter?. I've read somewhere that it can be used... but I am not sure about which exactly interface and what the deal there. I am just guessing here. The idea is, if your 882 can 'operate' as standalone converter, then it goes something like: you turn it off and then make sure nothing 'digital/computer' is connected to it or if connected, then it has to be 'off'. So, then you power up the interface... it "thinks" for a while...then if no digital clock detected (or what ever technical term there :o ) - it sets itself into (or operates as) stand alone converter mode with its internal clock.... and you use analog input 1/2 and digital out S/PDIF .... so you can send digital to your computer's digital S/PDIF-in interface/card.....

again, I am not sure what I am talking about,,, :D :o :D ... but as a thought
 
reel buzzer said:
Anyway what I am saying is, I thought that computer recording had come a long way for low price stuff, and that maybe it would be equal to something that I bought back in 1994 for $3000.
WRONG!!

I just don't know how much longer I can keep the old Mac Quadra 840 working.

If you spent about $3800 today on a DAW ($3K in '94 dollars) I would think you could get something much better than that old NuBus Digi setup.

The Quadra will probably outlast any of us. Those were damn good machines, and the top of the Mac line at the time. You could always move up to an 7/8100 if you want more horsepower, but still need to run system 7. If you run out of 50pin SCSI drives there are SCSI to IDE adaptors available. :D
 
Dr. Zee that is a great idea, so all I need really is and firewire interface that has SPDIF intput, because once it is digital it will sound the same when I transfer it via the SPDIF, right?
 
reel buzzer said:
Dr. Zee that is a great idea, so all I need really is and firewire interface that has SPDIF intput, because once it is digital it will sound the same when I transfer it via the SPDIF, right?
I think so... but I can't be 100% sure, if I had 882 I could tell if it works just like that.
Here I've found pdf where I've read this: 882 / 20 i/o interface guide pdf , it's on page 10 of the pdf file. Also there's note there, that in stand alone mode it works at 44.1 kHz (as default???) , and I think the default settings can be changed via software ..well, I really have no idea.... so double check everything).
also it looks like you can use it as d/a stand alone converter as well.
It looks like you have nothing to lose by trying it out :) ... If it works then you can use it as converter to record to any digital recording device/system with SPDIF input
 
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