"poor mans clasp" direct to daw via repro head

[jeancoltrane]

so i finally got around to trying this, and it seems to work pretty well. for anyone thats not familiar, it involves recording into your deck, then directly off the repro head into the daw in real time. for overdubs, you monitor the daw output via your interface or mixer and then use a delay compensation plug in to compensate for the gap between the record and repro heads so your overdub aligns back up in time. i'm using the voxengo plugin with logic pro, which seems to be working quite well with a few quirks. all the explanations ive read, you put the plugin on the channel you are currently recording to and it corrects the repro delay - but thats hasnt worked for me; i have to put the plugin on all the previously recorded tracks (and not the track im overdubbing to) and then the overdub will line up. hopefully im missing something obvious here, if anyone has experience.

im using a teac a2340 at 7 1/2 ips and even that speed seems to be near sample accurate, maybe 0-3 samples ahead or behind (the biggest difference being at the start of the reel vs the end) at 44.1 that would be an 'error' of less than 0.1ms, which im assuming is not a big deal timing wise. i'm guessing if i had a 15ips machine it would be sample accurate throughout.

obviously this is pretty cool, i now have an infinite number of tracks with my shitty 1/4" machine and dont have to worry about bouncing down or multiple rounds of conversion. i would love to stay all analog, but this seems like a good solution until i can get the dough together to make that happen.

i've even thought about picking up a mastering deck like an ampex 440, revox a77, or otari 5050 that i can use to track with, then off the repro head into the daw. i imagine that would give some huge sound without needing to get a 2" 16 track or whatever. my favourite sounding album ever (can - tago mago) was recorded using a revox a77, so i know you can get some sweet sounds direct to 2 track even if its a full band.

anyway, just curious as to who is using this method and what tips or experiences you may have - especially if youre using logic or a mastering deck to track with.

 

[miroslav]

I did some messing with it awhile back using my Otari 5050 BIII, which can do 2-track, half-track...just to see how it would work out, the mechanics of the whole thing, since it's not all fully automatic like the actual CLASP system and you can't bounce around and have it all chase-lock automatically.
Yeah...it's a little more muss-n-fuss, but nothing bad, and once you get your "process" worked out, you can roll smoothly.
Of course, with a 2-track, you can only do so much per pass...which is not a big deal if it's just you doing one track at a time anyway.

I don't really bother doing it that way though, it was just an experiment to see how I could if ever I needed to or wanted to.
Since I have a 2" 24-track...it's just easier for me to do all my tracking to tape...and then I sync-lock and do my dump all at once to the DAW....and because it's sync-locked, I can go back and record another 24 tracks, etc....but I don't really have a need to with most of my projects. I can usually get it all in one 24-track pass....and if I ever need to add a track or two, I might just do them direct to DAW, since they're often just ear-candy add-on tracks.

Tracking to the 2" is about as simple and easy as it gets....easier than tracking to a DAW and easier than messing with the "poor man's CLASP" approach.
If I didn't have the multitrack deck...then I might be doing the same thing as you.

 

[jeancoltrane]

I did some messing with it awhile back using my Otari 5050 BIII, which can do 2-track, half-track...just to see how it would work out, the mechanics of the whole thing, since it's not all fully automatic like the actual CLASP system and you can't bounce around and have it all chase-lock automatically.
Yeah...it's a little more muss-n-fuss, but nothing bad, and once you get your "process" worked out, you can roll smoothly.
Of course, with a 2-track, you can only do so much per pass...which is not a big deal if it's just you doing one track at a time anyway.

I don't really bother doing it that way though, it was just an experiment to see how I could if ever I needed to or wanted to.
Since I have a 2" 24-track...it's just easier for me to do all my tracking to tape...and then I sync-lock and do my dump all at once to the DAW....and because it's sync-locked, I can go back and record another 24 tracks, etc....but I don't really have a need to with most of my projects. I can usually get it all in one 24-track pass....and if I ever need to add a track or two, I might just do them direct to DAW, since they're often just ear-candy add-on tracks.

Tracking to the 2" is about as simple and easy as it gets....easier than tracking to a DAW and easier than messing with the "poor man's CLASP" approach.
If I didn't have the multitrack deck...then I might be doing the same thing as you.

thanks for chiming in. thats quite the luxury! i'm still trying to convince my girlfriend a 24 track would be perfect for the basement haha.

wondering if you noticed any sound quality benefit tracking on the 1/2 track vs the 24 track? and were you able to get the otari sample accurate? its one of the machines i might be looking at for this purpose. if i do a loopback test with my teac 2340, maybe 3 out of 10 times it will line up at the start of the waveorm, but it might be 1-3 samples off at a later point in the wave. listening back i cant notice, but its still frustrating to know things arent 100%. hoping a newer machine with 15 ips would solve that though.

 

[miroslav]

I wouldn't sweat 1-3 samples. I don't think there's anyone who can play that tightly.
I've not noticed anything out of sync, but I also don't sit there and measure samples. If it sounds tight, that's all that counts, IMO...but my sync setup is kinda involved, so I know it's locked from end to end.

I've got a Lucid SSG master clock generator that feeds video black burst to my Microlynx Timeline and Word Clock to my DAW converters. The Timeline controls the 2" tape deck, locked via SMPTE.
I use the DAW as my master, which feeds MTC back out to the Timeline.
So the Lucid SSG is my master clock reference, and the DAW is the master time/position reference.
Since the DAW and Timeline (and deck) are all referenced to the SSG...it's a pretty rock solid setup.

That said...with the 2" 24-track...I'm actually not doing too many multiple dumps from the tape deck to the DAW per song.
When I was using my Fostex G16, I use to do a couple of dumps to the DAW, so the whole sync-lock was more critical.
With the 2" I usually can get everything recorded onto 23 tracks (one track I keep SMPTE on).
I've had to occasionally add some additional vocal tracks...and with them, I'm not as concerned about any sample-accurate sync...but with my sync setup I don't have to even think about out.
Sometimes, if I need to add a couple of tracks beyond the 23 on the tape deck...I may record them direct to the DAW rather than even bother doing the whole sync-up just for a couple of tracks.

Even so, I always stripe SMPTE on every reel on track 24, and I always set up all my sync options in the DAW, and use the sync setup at least once per session. That way the sync option is always ready when needed. I keep the same SOP going from session to session regardless of how many tracks I'm doing. It lets me run more on "auto-pilot" that way.