Old guy needs direction. . .

well, you did ask for advice in the Analog section....
But i would just keep doing what you are doing.

Unless you are working with film or professional scenarios where they need protools files or stems.

i don't get the impression you need deep editing or plugs.

Or, as others have said, even 24 tracks.

If you want to try a DAW, why don't you get one of the cheap or even free versions that are out these days and muck around and see if you like it.

I have garage band on my laptop and ipad for instance, and there are a bunch of similar things for pc. traction, protools free, etc.

I had a couple of stand alone all in one digital recorders, but i didn't like the user interface on either. They sounded ok, but not spectacular.
 
Your patient advice is greatly appreciated, young man.

Hi,

I actually don't have much useful advice to offer - I'm really just replying for the pleasure of being addressed as "young man". But I didn't start getting into the whole computer based DAW thing until I was 60 and I've mostly found it absorbing, interesting, and enjoyable - and not incompatible with still liking all things admirably analog and antique. The comments and advice that Miroslav gave in his posts on how to dip a cautious toe into the digital domain without risking total immersion seemed very good to me.

Good luck with your choice old fellow...
 
Yes, I did ask for any advice... :)

I have a need for, really HAD a need for, 24 tracks for quite a while. . I have bounced tracks in excess of what seems like both any manufacturer's recommendations, and modern human understanding. .
I want to work less hard, therefore my reluctance to go the DAW route. .

I have the outboard gear, hardware, old-school patchbay, etc, so it seems logical to go to the stand-alone hard-drive route. .

I will have to look into the other brands of equally discontinued recorders. I guess I have a little more research to do there.

I appreciate the many opinions on what I originally expected would be a quickly-dropped, misplaced, OT thread. . :D
 
So if he goes all 'puter then all that rackmount stuff he has becomes mostly useless. No need for it to.

I never suggested he go "all 'puter"...I said a computer DAW is IMO a substantially better way to go than a standalone hardisk recorder. What I said in the end was that in his case, he might be better off just stying all analog. :)
I use a computer DAW...and yet I still track to a tape deck and mix with my analog console and racks of outboard gear. The computer DAW is in-between, and becomes the "playback deck" during mixdown...only thing you need is A/D/A channels to match the number of console channels you wish to use...8...16...24...32...whatever.

The real point here is that once you stick a standalone digital recorder in the chain...the desire, curiosity, need to do some digital editing/comping will be facing you...and at that point, the frustration of doing that on a standalone digital recorder VS a computer based DAW quickly becomes evident. Trying to work off a 2" x 4" LCD screen on a standalone recorder is pretty tedious....and if you have one that allows connectivity to a computer/large LCD monitor...then you are already well into a computer DAW rig. ;)
There's a reason why most people (home rec and pro) have gone with a computer based DAW of some kind and the standalone digital recorders have been passed over and can be gotten pretty cheap used now days.
Their main benefit would be field/mobile recording...but heck, these days, most guys are using laptops, and they just bring a case of rack gear (pres, interfaces, etc).
The amount of bonus stuff you get using a full-tilt DAW rig VS a standalone makes it worth the short learning curve IMO, and then you can really do as much or as little as you like with your productions...you have ALL the options available.

Again...I'm not suggesting he go all ITB...I'm just saying that with a standalone digital recorder, he's kinda half in/half out...where a computer DAW gives him much more, and he can still keep/use the analog outboard gear...which would connect in the same manner with a standalone or a DAW...you still need the A/D/A interfaces with either option.
 
I got all that ..... and I got it the first time .... you presented your POV very well. I didn't chatacterize anything you said and didn't need a page long disertation obviously talking down to me as if I didn't understand what you were saying. You're NOT smarter than everyone else ..... smart? Yes. Smarter than everyone else? .. no. I did get your point of view just fine in the dim reccesses of my ( apparently according to you) feeble mind.

Now ..... try to get MY POV. I don't agree ...... I'm doing the very thing you say will be frustrating and I do it for the exact same reason that the OP says he'd like to go that way.
I feel ZERO frustration ...... I feel ZERO need for any of the crap that goes with all 'Puter and I feel ZERO desire to buy tapes and/or be ALL analog.
As far as I'm concerned the standalone is the best of all possible worlds .... better than analog because of the maintainance hassles and the cost of tapes.
And better than going to all digital. Better, to me, than your set-up. Better to me than the Protools set-up that I frequently work with in pro studios.
I wouldn't trade the rig I have for yours ... period.
And BTW ..... not because of any digital learning curve. Digital's easy ...... there's no learning curve for anyone that's done it as long as I have ..... it's simple and easy to understand.

Try to get your mind around the fact that is is possible to have different preferences and that it's not a matter of your way is right and other ways are wrong.

I've had a home studio for 43 years and have been a professional session man in pro studios for most of that time also.

I'm NOT saying your way is wrong or without merit. I AM saying I know every bit as much about recording as you do and my way and opinion is just as valid as yours.

It's really irritating when you talk down to people because you think your opinion is always the best way ............ it is for you ........... not neccessarily for everyone else.
And people that don't agree with you might have valid points too ..... it's not always because they're just not smart enough to understand your wisdom.
 
I'll weigh in my 2 cents. I have both a decent DAW and the HD24. Love the editing in the DAW but for laying down basic tracks, the HD24 is WAY better IMHO. It's far more stable than the DAW and a lot more intuitive to operate, especially if you come out of a tape deck state of mind. It does seem redundant to track into the HD24 just to transfer the tracks to a DAW but I do all of that crap when the band has left. It's better for me anyways and the way I have come to work. YMMV.
 
Lt. Bob...you have some issues dude. :rolleyes:
If you feel I'm "talking down" to you...that's a perception problem on your end, based on your own view of where you are.
It's got nothing to do with what I'm posting.
The details in my posts are mainly for the OP's benefit since he was asking for *advice*.

If you are going to quote me and make a counter argument (even though I was not talking to you to begin with, I was talking to the OP and to briank)...when I then reply to your post, don't get all little-girl pissy and start tossing out your audio "resume" if I happen to disagree or if I present a different perspective.
You've been doing that a lot lately.
You must think I really care about what you do or what you've done, and that just I'm out to "talk you down".
Well I don't and I'm not...so get over your own ego, you'll feel better.
 
It's far more stable than the DAW and a lot more intuitive to operate, especially if you come out of a tape deck state of mind. It does seem redundant to track into the HD24 just to transfer the tracks to a DAW but I do all of that crap when the band has left. It's better for me anyways and the way I have come to work. YMMV.

And I don't disagree that just hitting RECORD on the standalone is simple and intuituve...but as you stated yourself...in the end, you DO transfer into a DAW, and why?.....probably because it's much easier to work with the audio in the DAW than the HD24.....right?

That's all I was saying...the real digital work one can do in a DAW pales what you can do in a recorder or to what level or to what flexibility.
If the OP wants to use an HD24 simply to replace his multi-track tape deck...that's fine. I'm certainly not trying to talk anyone into doing anything they don't want. :D
I was just thinking if you are going to "up your game"...then take the extra few steps to realize all the new possibilities, and then use them to whatever level you like....and I think you will agree that a DAW certainly adds a substantial level to your HD24.
There is no personal agenda here, I use what I use and I honestly don't much care what other people use, it's everyone's choice....but the OP is asking for advice, so I think it's best he hears all the pros/cons and then goes from there.
 
I actually don't have much useful advice to offer - I'm really just replying for the pleasure of being addressed as "young man". QUOTE]:)

LOL. . I just want to re-group here. . . I think each one of the replies here have had good, relevent, valid points.

But I'll clarify since I didn't do a good job of stating my needs or goals, and for those who may have missed some of my posts a few pages back- -
1. I want, need, whatever, more tracks. For drums, percussion, multiple guitars, synths, vocals. Classic rock folks can try to imagine "Hotel California" meets "Jesus Is Just Alright". . I already have an analog board, outboard effects rack, patchbay, etc. (I'd post a pic if I knew how)

2. I thought that by going digital, I could increase my available tracks, and have a supported product, i.e. Not discontinued. An HD-24 is lower maintenence and a tad bit cheaper than a 2" Studer.

3. I could have better quality, since bouncing is, well, bouncing.

4. I understand the limitations of digi-porta-studios not having the I/O options, but they have the track count I need. If Tascam had given the DP-24 direct outs, this thread would never have happened.

5. I understand all the benefits of a DAW, but I'm quite leery of the technology. I find video monitors distracting when working with audio, although for editing, locate points and the like, would be useful, but for eq, comp, etc, I can't SEE eq, I can only hear it, and these days, not so well either. . . I have tried to mess with the trial versions of CoolEdit, Reason, etc, and I find myself completely lost, hence my USERNAME. . .

6. You guys are extremely helpful to me, and I value each of your opinions tremendously. To those who have PM'ed me - - Thank you !
 
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Lt. Bob...you have some issues dude. :rolleyes:
If you feel I'm "talking down" to you...that's a perception problem on your end,
.
no .... first off ..... that long response was directly to ME and addresses me by name so it wasn't to the OP.
Second ... you talk down to people frequently.
I have no issues 'based on where I am'. You don't know squat about me.

Simply start talking back and forth as equals, both with ideas that have merit, instead of down to me and we'll never have a disagreement again. We may not agree on processes but I'm not looking to have a war with you.
You're a player, like I am ..... and you love music, like I do ..... and you make your living in the field of music like I do.
we're pretty similar.
I've never ever come into one of your gear responses and argued with you that you're wrong.
I have always shown some respect for your knowledge even if I don't always go the same way as you.

But when I offer a different way you always talk down to me like you know the truth and I know nothing.
Sorry, but that will always set me off ....

I would prefer that, although we have different ideas about things, that we simply go ... "well .... that's interesting ... not how I'd do it but there are lots of ways to do this stuff" and then simply compare notes on what we do and why.
Not that either of us is gonna change our minds but we can both learn stuff from each other.

I have learned things from some of your posts .... but you always come back at me like I'm undereducated or I wouldn't take a different path than yours because yours is the most logical and best.
I think I've gotten to the point where I deserve to not be talked to as if I'm stupid.
Just don't do that and we won't knock heads again.
And if you can't see the condescending tone of your posts then I don't know what to tell you.

Treat other people with the respect you want for yourself .... it's really that easy.
 
5. I understand all the benefits of a DAW, but I'm quite leery of the technology. I find video monitors distracting when working with audio, although for editing, locate points and the like, would be useful, but for eq, comp, etc, I can't SEE eq, I can only hear it, and these days, not so well either. . . I have tried to mess with the trial versions of CoolEdit, Reason, etc, and I find myself completely lost, hence my USERNAME.

It's pretty much the same technology as a standalone...just a different "package", and yeah, different approach...though IMHO, it might be better to say it's a more detailed/involved approach than a pure hardware recorder, but same technology.
Now...you may not want/need that level of detail/involvement, and are just looking for a way to replace the multi-track tape deck, and not much else, so then go with the hardware recorder.
I'm only suggesting a DAW for the additional possibilities and flexibilities and future upgrade path.
Lots of guys here think that Reaper is a pretty user-friendly DAW, and almost costs nothing compared to some other DAWs.
You might want to check that out...but yeah, some folks hate working in the computer and some don't...but it is the more prevalent way of working these days, and quite honestly, if you get past the "computer" thing...once you dive into a DAW and get familiar, it is rather mind-blowing what can be done and the ease with which it can be done.

I don't know what kind of analog rack gear you already have...but you will get a whole mess of EQ, comp, reverb, etc processing that can be a supplement (and/or improvement) to your analog gear. What you "see" in the DAW is not much different than what you see when you look at a rack of processing gear...it's just software versions.

Also...there's the final product...the CD or the MP3/WAV file.
If you are going to do any final touch-up mastering and prepping of those delivery formats...in most cases you are back in a computer/DAW type environment...unless you get some sort of standalone CD mastering burner/finalizer...etc...etc.

I get that you want more tracks and to lose the tape, etc...but again...I'm not sure of your longterm goals, which will be the driving force of your upgrade decisions.
 
... you always talk down to me....

That's funny coming from a guy who's lobbied multiple personal shots and name-calling digs at me in a few other threads lately.....

I was just responding to your post/quote that was directed at me, and maybe I'm providing a different/opposing view, but If you are going to always take that as me "talking down" at you, then don't engage me in any threads...
...but like I said, that's simply a perception problem on your part if you think I'm talking down at you.

You've gone out of your way lately to make things "personal" with me, in other threads too. No matter what/how I say something, you've gotten pissy, often with name-calling and digs. I think now you are carrying that chip into every thread and spoiling for some kind of argument that I wasn't even trying to make.

I really don't know WTF you're even talking about here AFA all that. I'm doing exactly what you are suggesting...you give your opinion, I give mine, someone else gives theirs...etc...etc...etc..we are discussing the topic at hand....why make it personal? :wtf:
 
One thing that standalone digital studios still do MUCH better than PC-based recording is control surface integration. It's typically a major pain in the bum to get a control surface to work the way you want it to with a given DAW program. The latest DAWs tend to support only the latest control surfaces. If you invested in a control surface five years ago and have upgraded your DAW by several versions since then, you may find that support for your particular hardware has disappeared from the latest version (if it ever had it in the first place). Contrast that with the all-in-one portas, where the faders and knobs work exactly the way they're supposed to right out of the box.
 
Yeah....that's another consideration if you use a DAW control surface. It's one more reason I've ended up with my particular hybrid setup, and I mix out of the DAW using my console, so I'm never bothering with the built in mixer of the DAW.

I know the "stronger" and more evolved DAW apps have a better support mechanism and tend to be more aware of not intentionally making things obsolete for their end users...but it's always a bit of a gamble with software based products...and that's no different than for a hardware digital recorder, which also is a software driven product.

The only way to avoid that issue is to kinda not upgrade too often, once you have a decent rig working for you, and for a home-rec user, it's OK to not upgrade often...but the pro/commercial studios tend to drive the upgrade bus a lot harder as most clients are somewhat aware of where technology is...so they expect "current".
 
Not only that, but a well-built, sturdy control surface can be insanely expensive - so expensive that many users resort to buying a used one that's out-of-date. Then they find out it's not compatible with any current DAW versions. In my opinion, although PC-based recording has leveled the playing field for non-pros in many ways, someone looking for a quality rig that matches the analog mixing experience on a budget may be s**t out of luck.
 
Yes. . It seems I have the choice of lesser evils. . .

A: Digi-portas have track count, are stable, user-friendly, BUT the I/O is limited. Which is understandable on one hand, they're aimed at garage bands that want to produce CDs using only the mics they bring to frat parties on the weekends. .. no other equipment necessary. . But on the other hand, I think Tascam dropped the ball here BIG-TIME - - if they added a simple display port and program to put the screen on a monitor (And I don't even like monitors,), and direct outs just for common sense, it would be a terrific piece of gear for the pro-sumer, and make it much more than a frat-boy toy. . (No offense intended to anyone. . . I have lots of toy equipment)

B: HD stand-alones have the I/O, and I have the rest of the outboard, but they're a dying breed. . availability of the drives, repair, replacement. It's a commitment, with search engines replacing your social circle of friends. . I will probably go that route, and live in fear of the drive-bays crapping out. . .

C: DAW-based would require gear I don't have. . a performance computer, interface, soundcard, and particlarly, an intellect. . . and some things you just can't find on ebay. . .
 
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and some things you just can't find on eBay. . .


That's hard to believe..... :D

On the subject of hard drives....start hunting for them now on eBay if they are for a dying breed of recorder.
I have a similar issue with my DAW, as I am not using a modern/current PC...but an older one because my A/D/A boxes all use PCI cards to connect to the computer, and it's hard to find a current PC with more than 1-2 slots...I need at least 3 PCI slots, so I'm using an older computer....which also bucks the notion that you need a high-performance/current model, but mine is pretty robust even for an older one.

Anyway...I also use SCSI hard drives in my system...and they are not as current/modern as the newer drives, so I have a pile of SCSI drives on hand. I use 4 drives in my DAW and have another 8 on the side for spares. :)
I only lost one drive in almost 10 years...and it wasn't an issue as I keep at least 2 backups of everything....which you should also consider having, a backup system for the HD recorder.
 
Yeah The only way to avoid that issue is to kinda not upgrade too often, once you have a decent rig working for you, ".

and there we have the situation in a nut-shell . . . except that perhaps I took that to a whole new level. . . and now the even the language has changed. . . I'm not quite sure what a "control surface" is, but I'm reasonably certain I don't have one of those either. . .
 
and there we have the situation in a nut-shell . . . except that perhaps I took that to a whole new level. . . and now the even the language has changed. . .

Not to worry. The biggest change in the recording scene is that it is more amateur than ever. The hi-fi bar has been lowered and thus it also sounds worse than ever. Probably the biggest mistake one can make is to assume the changes they missed equal advancement or improvement and they need to be brought up to speed.

That’s why this analog forum is even here. A good many members over the years came here in the first place because of disappointment with digital recording technology. One thing to be careful of is that you don’t wind up on the same digital wild goose chase that I’ve watched my friends and colleagues running over the last 20 years. There’s no end to it.

It’s just as likely you’ll find the right direction in improving on your analog equipment with an upgrade in analog equipment. I mentioned the Tascam MSR-16 if you can get by with 16 tracks, but if you really need more there are options, such as the Tascam MSR-24 and Fostex G24, which use 1-inch tape.

There’s no digital equivalent to analog tape, so expect to take a sonic hit if you try to go all digital. I wouldn’t record in a purely digital environment. If you can integrate digital technology with your current analog machine and mixing console you can keep your sound from going completely in the tank, but then you’ll be delving into synchronization and other things that might seem more trouble than it’s worth.

I use a DAW when I need a few extra tracks, but everything tracks to tape first and is mixed down to tape on a half-track mastering deck last. It’s really more trouble than just buying a 16-track analog machine, but I don’t need more tracks all that often even though I will only bounce a track once. I use MIDI sequencing the old fashioned way as well, so most of my keyboard tracks run in sync with the analog multitrack and go directly to the mixdown deck first generation. I don’t know how heavily you use keyboards in your music or if you were busy that week when syncing MIDI instruments to tape was the cool thing. ;)
 
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