Need new smaller mixer

witzendoz said:
How much does it hiss if you have say some tracks of audio through it and you have to turn it down so it does not blow your ears out. I am just saying this coz I have had an engineer in my studio turn up my master and say, "Gee thats a noisy console", then I hit play and its like, "fu@K thats loud". True signal to noise. All analog has some noise, agreed it should still be reasonable.

Just to make things clear, you have every channel muted, all aux channel sends turned off, the bus masters down, and the record outs (not monitor outs) are noisy? And its audio hiss not a digital ground loop somewhere?

Alan.
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Alan - yes, the record main outs are noisier than the monitor outs. Its audio hiss as far as I can tell.

Here's an interesting observation though - with the master fader up producing noise, I dime all 24 inline monitors and it does not make any noticeable increase in noise, which is interesting since we know the monitors feed the master section. Also, I dime the FX returns, and again, no noticeable increase in noise.

However, if I increase the monitor level on the groups, and raise the group fader, it does add to the noise (granted, I dime the monitors here also)

I'm going to do more level setting and see what I can achieve.

~Mike
 
sweetbeats said:
Anyway, there's just some things I see that don't line up with what I would want if I was dropping that kind of money on a console. I really feel your struggle...its like nothing exists with the build quality and features in the price range, or at all for that matter in an analog console. I think Miro kind of hit a sweet spot with what he ended up with...albeit was used and he went through it and finished modifications and such...anyway...Soundcraft 400 or 600 series, Soundtracs...but they all need work by now...geez. Maybe it is good to work through whatever needs to happen to get the Toft to be what you want it to be.

Tough spot.
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Thanks Cory - yeah I'd love to find that certain console like Miro did - that sure sounds like a great find and a lot of patience.

One reason that I wanted something new was because this is also partly for my AV business, and mfg warranty and insurance plays a role, and downtime is also an important factor. If I went with something older (maybe better in the long run), I'd be mostly concerned with downtime. Although, in reality, going back to digital is easy enough for adding tracks and voiceovers etc. in a pinch.

I really like the features of the console, it could use a stereo aux for cue mixes and FX return buss assignment would be nice, but I can prob patch those in somehow. I might still keep it, and after warranty, get some mod's. Neotek is right up the road, but over triple the price.

I like the idea of working with the gain staging a little more and see where I can turn down the master.
 
witzendoz said:
How much does it hiss if you have say some tracks of audio through it and you have to turn it down so it does not blow your ears out. I am just saying this coz I have had an engineer in my studio turn up my master and say, "Gee thats a noisy console", then I hit play and its like, "fu@K thats loud". True signal to noise. All analog has some noise, agreed it should still be reasonable.
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:D

When I first got my old Tascam 3500, many years ago...I put up all the channels and the master...and it was HISSSSSSS.
So I called Tascam to ask them if that was normal for that much noise, and of course, the tech pointed out that exact thing...that all analog consoles will do that to a degree, but that is a poor way to judge...and that you really want to compare the S/N.
When I put an actual signal through it and adjusted my monitors to the right listening level...and then turned off the signal...the console was pretty darn quiet.

My Trident is quieter...BUT...it's had some substantial upgrades, the main one that IMO dropped the noise floor is the power supply and power distribution upgrades, done by the previous owner (well, by his tech)...and also the insane copper ground bar and grounding distribution that he did to the console. I think also the upgrade done by Jim Williams to the master section, to raise the headroom and clean up some of the caps...also adds to the lower noise level.

Sure, there might be higher end consoles that are much quieter...but you kinda have to keep things relative for them to make sense in your own application.
 
I would contact TOFT, there could be a faulty component in the main out section? Just out of curiosity, what monitors are you plugging into the toft?

Alan.
 
The dealer certainly offered to get a replacement in, and test it out before they would send it to me, which I am OK with I guess.

I've just been doing some work with this thing, I have made a little progress. I am pushing the channels a bit harder, still under red, and reducing the master fader (about -12). I'm getting nominal output on the LED's and its very loud and it sounds great.

But I need to test on some softer tracks to see if the noise comes through.

Now my question is this, I've always been under the impression that a master fader should always be up all the way at zero, or doesn't it really matter?


witzendoz said:
I would contact TOFT, there could be a faulty component in the main out section? Just out of curiosity, what monitors are you plugging into the toft?

Alan.
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Alan - I am using Adam A7X monitors.
 
I love the sound of Adam monitors, heard some at a trade show, if I did not have the monitors I have now I would think about getting a pair. Then again why not get some? LOL Refer here

Alan.
 
fstrat76 said:
The dealer certainly offered to get a replacement in...
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So was this a new ATB 24...?

I always try to keep the master fader up at zero, or at least higher than any of the individual channels.
You have some room to play with...but that's always been what I understood as the better way to go.
 
I worry less about the MASTER. The console is convenience, rather than straight wire purity. So, it is just the last section of noise
 
I nearly always keep the master fader at 0, sometimes dropping it maybe -10 when a mix is building and the combined level starts to get hot.

I do however push the inputs to the console hot, it's the old analog me, trying to overcome the signal to noise of analog gear. I also think that analog gear sounds better when given a little shove, remembering that 0 dB analog is about -18 dB digital. +3 or +5 is not uncommon on my analog channels when tracking or even mixing. The Tascam M3700 has a specified peak of +18dB on channel inputs before the peak light comes on, I have never seen a channel peak light come on LOL. From memory the VU channels meters go to +12.

I love analog, so forgiving.

Alan.
 
I'm learning onboard channel compression with synth inputs. I'll move to 0 as I start but easily end up -15. With the old Tascam, I'd rather have the channels doing the work, and, I'd just bring up the subs to set levels on the modestly set disk recorder inputs (or the 2-track). Always exceptions
 
There's no question there is noise on the master section when pushed above -15, the console sounds really nice otherwise while pushing the channels. I'd like to be able to get to zero without worrying about it though, so there is still a flaw with the unit in this regard. It won't fix the specs, but maybe a replacement fixes the issue.

I need to test with some acoustic material to see how the noise comes through.
 
Adam, like 90% of monitor mnfcts, fail to provide a figure for self noise but I have never read in any review or forum that they are noisy. Therefore I will suggest that you back off the mixer's output and increase the gain on the Adams? Horrible kludge I know! Goes against the grain to work at a line level other than +4dBu but, when the devil drives?

But also I have TRIED to get some meaningful figures for the output residual noise of other mixers? Peeps like Yamaha and Mackie simply don't tell you jack. Other makers give figures but the exact setup is unclear and only one firm, Presonus, came clean about the numbers being A weighted.

Best of the raw, unspecified figures was the A&H 24GL an -96 dBu, no channels routed, worsening to -86dBu 16 chs routed.
Worst was the Audient ASP 8024 which gave 'Bus noise' -93dBu no inputs routed, -81dBu 36 inputs routed.

Presonus gave: 'Line/mic at Unity gain 94dB S/N ref +4dBu.

So! Bloody maze in a minefield but all those mixers seem to be around 10dB better than the Toft?

(Err? was there an implication that the Toft uses the TL072 op amp? Surely not, about 10dB noisier in low Z circuitry than the venerable (but bloody good!) NE5532. The LM4562 is even better.)

Dave.
 
Yes, when I was researching the noise figures, we had dB, dBu, dBv, blah blah blah. What the heck! I am sure that if the TOFT had unrealistic noise figures it would have been in a review somewhere.
 
I've been following this thread for a little while. I own a Toft. Its an ATB8 ver3. I did have it (for a while) as my playback using the monitor outs to the monitor speakers. It was sorta noisy. More than I wanted to deal with. It's now just a side-car for the channels. I like the EQ and the pres do drums as well as anything a few steps up from it. And that's what I use it for. For this, it's fine. I know it's not what the OP is looking to do in his room and what he uses his desk for.

When I upgraded (a couple of times back) I sold my Ghost console to make room. I had a 32 that had the Jim Williams mods on the master section and eight channels. Into the Alesis HD24 and it was an easy studio to get good sounds from. And for several years it did just that. My upgrade to this came from two different Tascams...an M520 and an M2500. Before that I had a live console that I would break out at home to record people with. I should have kept it after the mods to the direct outs. Yamaha PM1000. Now there's something with MOJO!

One thing I did find when I was using the Toft as my playback control, is the hiss went down substantially with very high grade military spec computer cabling and decreasing the distance to the amp or the monitors helps a lot.

I never found any hiss on recorded tracks only in the monitoring.
 
"One thing I did find when I was using the Toft as my playback control, is the hiss went down substantially with very high grade military spec computer cabling "

That is an interesting observation Cavedog. Do you mean the cables from mixer to monitors? Can you give details of the cables?

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
"One thing I did find when I was using the Toft as my playback control, is the hiss went down substantially with very high grade military spec computer cabling "

That is an interesting observation Cavedog. Do you mean the cables from mixer to monitors? Can you give details of the cables?

Dave.
Click to expand...

He's talking rf and such
 
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