Need new smaller mixer

OK...maybe after the whole board is recapped/rechipped, then just take the main buss up a few notches with better opamps...but for those kind of high-end chips, I think it would be a waste if the rest of the circuitry doesn't at least come close. I mean, the stereo bus alone isn't going to fix what the channels bring.
 
That all sounds like a great deal of mod-work for my M2600 - for me anyway. Time-wise, I'm better off looking for a higher quality functional used analog console, or give that Toft a tryout.

I even thought about - well, a digital console, but I am hesitant of the audio quality and the obsolescence factor. Soundcraft has one: Si Impact | Soundcraft - Professional Audio Mixers
 
I get that, but 2-channels here and there is standard operating procedure. Can be 4-strips, whatever, instead of outboard inputs. People insert their perceived "gold" wherever they want.

I don't use the stereo buss on the m-106, and having buss outs on the new Behringer was part of that output routing I like to plug things into. Outputs do matter. Nothing wrong with Burr-Brown, and any of the variety offered. When the engineer says it went through his custom console, it was upgrade to HIS spec, whatever one chooses. Output is my choice if I have to make a choice
 
garww said:
I get that, but 2-channels here and there is standard operating procedure. Can be 4-strips, whatever, instead of outboard inputs. People insert their perceived "gold" wherever they want.
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Yeah, that would work in some cases, where you just use a few things at a time, when you want to.

For me, it had to be the whole board because I use the monitor section when I'm tracking, for playback from my 24-channel tape deck...not really critical, but I couldn't see doing the rest of the board and not the monitor section...
...and I need all the channels, not just a couple "gold" strips, since I mix out of the DAW through the console, across 32 channels.

Also...I simply wanted to overhaul the whole console, since it was in such good shape to begin with...not all beat to piss like you see with some older consoles...and the previous guys already started the process. So it just needed the usual 20+ year overhaul with the recap, and the rechip made sense, especially after I was able to compare some stock channels with a few that were already rechipped.
IOW...I was focused on fully reconditioning and upgrading the entire console, rather than just looking to make do with a few strips.
 
Ya, but I suggested buss outs, you still have the direct outs. From my multi=track, my 2-track has 2x2 input, so I use 4-buss out (maybe).

I don't, particularly, need the input juiced, when it is (can be) much cheaper on the outs. I can assign everything 1 & 2 and have tubes and/or that little Sony piece of junk on buss outs.

Workflow rules though.
 
fstrat76 said:
That is my case as well, except I only do 8-16 tracks from daw. I sync to tape also.
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OK...so you're doing a similar hybrid setup as I am.

I still think you'll regret the 16 channel mixer down the road....especially since you're coming from a DAW.
Maybe now you're only using a 16 channel interface...but eventually, the DAW presents options you wouldn't be able to do with a pure 16-track tape rig...so then your DAW track count increases, but you're stuck with only 16 going out...and even if you get another interface to expand...the mixer doesn't let you.

I'm just saying you should think future, not just this moment in time....especially if you're going to drop a decent chunk of cash on the mixer.

Look also at some DDA analog consoles, the Allen & Heath are great if you find a GS rather than GL model (S=studio, L=live).
Another great option is D&R, and then there are the Audient consoles...but these are more recent and maybe more expensive.
I also see used Amek consoles a lot...but they are older and may need some work.

I think that's your main issue...older ones will need some work, on top of the initial price, but you can get more consoel in the end....newer consoles won't need the work, but may cost more and you'll have to stay with something smaller.
 
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I haven't used up 16 from DAW yet and I've been doing it a few years, since I usually sum certain things in the DAW first, however, I get your point as it is easy to increase track count in the box. I could re-patch inputs as necessary, but that's never fun (for me). 1 to 1 is a great but more expensive option. How many DAW outputs are pushed to your Trident?

I'll check out those other consoles but I've seen Audient is around 15k. Neotek is a few miles from me, and also starts around 15k. I'll check out the others.
 
fstrat76 said:
Yep - that's why I came here, to get solutions to the problem of not really finding anything useful on the "new" market.

I might need to adjust my thinking here.

I guess I can look at used analog desks too, more recent than 25 years old, with better quality than my Tascam M2600, and with general reliability.

If I drop from 24 to 16 channels, I'll save a little space anyway.

So feel free to suggest those used analog consoles as well. I just don't want to spend a whole lot of time on maintenance. The Toft is about 5K+ new, so my budget will be in that area.
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if you're really interested in the toft board also check out trident. they have a small board in the same price range
 
sparky123 said:
if you're really interested in the toft board also check out trident. they have a small board in the same price range
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Not sure which new Trident board you are talking about...the smallest 16 channel is like $16k...and they go up from there.

Both the Toft and the new Trident, are manufactured by PMI Audio...the former in China, the latter in USA, California.
Before they acquired the Trident name, they built the Toft, which was supposed to mimic some of the vintage Trident design since it was designed by Malcom Toft who had his hand in the original Trident designs.

The new Trident is in a much higher class than the Toft, which is overpriced, IMO, even at the substantially lower prices than the new Trident, which so far are good pretty good reviews, unlike the Toft boards.
I don't think Malcom Toft had anything to do with these new Tridents...but they too claim to have a lot of the vintage Trident design built into them.

If I ever have the cash and desire to make a significant upgrade from my vintage Trident 24 London...and in the 24-32 channel range, and with a decent amount of features, I would look for a Neotek probably...though these new Tridents would deserve a look too. Of course, that would be something in the $25k range...and TBH, if I was going to drop that kind of cash on a console, I think there would be a lot of consoles to consider, both new and used.
 
After much research and consideration, I picked up a Toft. While the Tridents, Neotek's and higher end boards interest me, the price is just not in the cards nor justified - for me.

So far, the Toft is pretty amazing, especially the EQ and the routing. The pre's are OK, not as much gain as I would have liked, but clean, and should be doable. A little slight noise on the monitor, but acceptable.

A pretty sturdy and great sounding unit. We'll see how it goes as time passes on.

One thing though Miro - I did decide to get 24 channels as opposed the 16 that I was initially considering. So much for downsizing. The Toft ATB 24 is smaller than the Tascam M2600-24 anyway, but I thought long and hard whether I should reduce my channels, and the answer was just no, and I would have regretted it at some point.

I picked up a couple compressors as well (LA2A, 1176, and SSL - all clones) as I want to do more OTB mixing. I need to add noise reduction now for my Tascam 38 and 42 and then I think I'm all set for awhile (sure).

Thanks everyone for the opinions and suggestions!


~Mike
 
"A little slight noise on the monitor, but acceptable. "

Err? Paying that sort of money Mike, I would find NO level of noise acceptable from monitors! I will qualify that: System set for optimum gain staging and monitor path calibrated and at regular listening distance.

Is it the pres' or monitor amps that hiss?

Dave.
 
Good questions, its not the pre's.

It's definitely from the monitor section/main speaker out that has the hiss as there is no signal going through anything for this test. I switched to balanced speaker connections with newer, shorter cables and that definitely helped, but its still present.

I need to check to make sure the master buss output has zero noise though. I am still going through the entire routing paths and testing.
 
Is there any other mixer section that is feeding the monitor section (or the main outs) that maybe has it's level cranked, sucking up the internal noise floor...?
IOW...zero/center everything, and then see if the hiss goes away.

I have no idea who things are wired on those consoles or what schemes were followed...etc...so you might have to just do some detective work. Maybe post up the question on some Toft user forum, or where you see some other owners.

Here's some comments about Toft noise from others...and some solutions/options to minimize it.

Toft ATB Consoles | Realgearonline

Toft atb questions - Gearslutz Pro Audio Community

Toft ATB Inquiry - Headroom - Mods - Gearslutz Pro Audio Community

Otherwise...I know a lot of folks have tried/used them...and if you do some mods/upgrades, they can be pretty good mixers.
That's that only way my Trident ended where it is. Without all the mods/upgrades it wasn't anywhere near as clean and punchy as it is now.
 
Yeah, testing further, the Master out noise is not acceptable. No connections, all faders and monitors down. Master fader -5 to 0 has a lot of hiss. I will either have to return the unit, get it repaired, get the mod's, or chuck the whole idea of getting a fully working console these days.

Other than that, the Toft is really nice though, and as far as functionality and workflow, meets my needs. The pre's are decent enough for now. The sound, to me, exceeds the Tascam by far, except the master out noise of course. The mods sound interesting, but nothing seems to work out-of-the-box anymore.

Its really sad that my choices are so limited these days; its either get a sub-par unit or take chances on a older console in the hopes I wont spend more time fixing it over actually making music.

I've read so much of this stuff - that even older consoles, their quality suffers in one area or another. I get it though - nothing is perfect, but I could spend 10k more and still end up with issues.

Well - I'll keep working the issue for now.
 
fstrat76 said:
Yeah, testing further, the Master out noise is not acceptable. No connections, all faders and monitors down. Master fader -5 to 0 has a lot of hiss. I will either have to return the unit, get it repaired, get the mod's, or chuck the whole idea of getting a fully working console these days.
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Give Jim Williams a call at Audio Upgrades.
He's usually willing to talk on the phone and even toss out some suggestions to you.
Not to mention...he would be one of the guys to know how to fix issues or do mods.

Audio Upgrades - 818-780-1222

My Trident had a few modified channels plus the master section, all done by him when the previous owner had it.
So I called him to ask about those mods, and specifically to get a better understanding of the mods he did to the EQ section on those channels, as I wanted to repeat the same EQ mod on all the other channels.

His modified channels usually involve removing a lot of the electrolytic caps, and also changing out some of the opamps to specific chips that he likes. The channels have a much cleaner sound, and a bit more gain....but TBH, I didn't really find them substantially "better" than the stock channels, unless someone wanted the whole board to be much cleaner.
I don't mean "hiss/noise"...but the the sound was more transparent than the stock channels.
I instead just swapped the opamps for some Burr-Browns of a different type, and they give the console a fat, punchy sound.
AFA the master section, he cleaned up a lot of the caps, but also raised the headroom...so when summing all the channels, it doesn't fall apart at all.

fstrat76 said:
I get it though - nothing is perfect, but I could spend 10k more and still end up with issues.
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I don't know what you paid for the Toft...I'm guessing around $4k-$5k for the 24-channel, depending on age, and version and if it came with the meter bridge.
For $10k...you might end up with issues if you were buying a console that was maybe $50k new...but TBH, there a bunch of used stuff in good shape that $10k will buy....or you buy something for $4k-$5k, and then put another $2k-$3k into it to fix, mod and upgrade...and you have a really good console in the end.

I got my Trident 24 London for a really decent price...probably $2k less than what the previous owner could have gotten for it...but I contacted him as soon as he listed the board, and I told him I could have the cash in his hand that weekend and pick it up.
Turns out he needed to get it out it's locations soon, and didn't want to wait...IOW, my offer and quick turnaround got me the deal.
After that I put another $3k into it, easy...but, it was overhauled top-to-bottom, and I ended up with a like-new console.
I'm sure I could sell it for a profit pretty easy, not that I have any plans to sell....just saying that it's a bit of a PITA, but you can end up with a pretty decent console with some effort and $$$.
Of course...the resale value depends on what console you have and where the market it...considering that DAWs are domination...but there is a return to hardware lately, along with the DAWs. Something with a vintage vibe still gets the interest.
 
miroslav said:
bunch of used stuff in good shape that $10k will buy....or you buy something for $4k-$5k, and then put another $2k-$3k into it to fix, mod and upgrade...and you have a really good console in the end.
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I get it, the journey started by thinking "plug-and-play" but looks like it'll take some more work and $.

I was reading a bunch of stuff that Jim Williams did and will reach out.

I too noticed the push to "return" to analog hardware with integration to DAW, and you can see some of the marketing hype with certain products. But that stuff doesn't seem ready for prime-time yet.
 
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