Need new smaller mixer

I'm talking more than just RF. I'm talking impedance, counter EMF from other cables carrying signal/power in the area.....

I was an electrician for 30+ years. I was on a lot of projects that had something to do with computer floors/ server rooms....etc. So sometimes in a demo you can collect cabling that won't be reused and repurpose it.

I still have a few hundred feet of a signal cable with silver conductors, a shield wrap over three conductors and it's not meshed but a lot of wrap/per/inch and a teflon coated outer covering to better pull it in a conduit.

I have lots of other cables too. Some of the famous ones......Theres only a couple that get anywhere near this quiet in use.

That being said....for the price point of the Toft stuff, and I DO own one, there shouldn't be any reason to have to go through all these gyrations to make it work. Properly. My monitor playback bussing on the Omni is dead quiet and it's in a single space rack full of converters and all sorts of paths.

Oh...and yeah, cabling from mixer to power amp for the passive monitors and mixer to the powered monitors. At the time those were Genelecs and the passive end of things was a nice big NAD amp and Tannoy NFM 8's. The amp had been modified to accept a balanced input instead of RCA's.
 
cavedog101 said:
I'm talking more than just RF. I'm talking impedance, counter EMF from other cables carrying signal/power in the area.....

I was an electrician for 30+ years. I was on a lot of projects that had something to do with computer floors/ server rooms....etc. So sometimes in a demo you can collect cabling that won't be reused and repurpose it.

I still have a few hundred feet of a signal cable with silver conductors, a shield wrap over three conductors and it's not meshed but a lot of wrap/per/inch and a teflon coated outer covering to better pull it in a conduit.

I have lots of other cables too. Some of the famous ones......Theres only a couple that get anywhere near this quiet in use.

That being said....for the price point of the Toft stuff, and I DO own one, there shouldn't be any reason to have to go through all these gyrations to make it work. Properly. My monitor playback bussing on the Omni is dead quiet and it's in a single space rack full of converters and all sorts of paths.

Oh...and yeah, cabling from mixer to power amp for the passive monitors and mixer to the powered monitors. At the time those were Genelecs and the passive end of things was a nice big NAD amp and Tannoy NFM 8's. The amp had been modified to accept a balanced input instead of RCA's.
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Hah! No need to be coy about it Cavedog! So you 'arf inched' some cable and shit! I spent 10 years in the network hardware industry and I am STILL using 'acquired' cables and outlets!

But, I cannot see the RF implications? Unless the system is generating out of band RF or there is a big local field what the worry? No cable system will reduce hiss (unless there IS some RF/digital hash around and it would be better to track that down and fix it) Silver conductors are useful at RF but have no advantage for audio*. Silver is only marginally more conductive than Copper. D.R.E.AM. to solder tho'but!

A balanced input will be measurably noisier than a well designed unbalanced one fed from a low Z but still around -100dBu so should not present a problem.

*Despite the claims of the Russ Andrews brigade.

Dave.
 
witzendoz said:
Orrrr, quoting from the opening post "I need to downsize. "

Alan
Click to expand...


Well...he also realized that getting 24 channels was better than the 16 he thought were going to be enough.
So much for "downsizing". :D

Sometimes, you actually need to do the opposite to end up where you really want to be. ;)
 
miroslav said:
Well...he also realized that getting 24 channels was better than the 16 he thought were going to be enough.
So much for "downsizing". :D

Sometimes, you actually need to do the opposite to end up where you really want to be. ;)
Click to expand...

fstrat76 will be building a bigger studio soon to house all the downsizing :facepalm:

Alan.
 
Oh man, I saw that Neotek earlier in the week....tempting - where would I put it...eh, let's change the title of the thread to "Need a new larger house" as most of us probably do....

Playing around more with the Toft - haven't decided on the return yet, but regarding the cables - I actually tried a real short cable to the monitor and it did seem like there was a decrease, though nothing scientific.

However, a good chunk of the noise is from the channel inline monitor being always connected (since the mute is before the opamps) so that's the major source. There are recommendations to pull a chip on the inline monitors effectively disabling it, and thus the noise. What's the point, I like inline monitor feature and if I did that, I might as well just get another console anyway.

What did work was this - simple: since all those inline monitors feed the mix bus, the master 2 buss insert interrupts that flow when in use, so I took Group 7 & 8, patched its output into the master insert "return", and the noise is gone. I can then route all input channels to group 7&8 instead of LR. There is still some noise on the group bus though, but nowhere near the level of the master buss with all those monitors feeding it. I would lose the 2 group busses for other processing though.

One thing to try next is to bypass the group fader and amps also, by using the group insert "send" directly patched into the master insert "return". That should eliminate the group bus noise.

Its still a kludge though.

Regardless, I love the config of this board so I'm just playing around until I can determine what to do with it.


But that Neotek.....
 
fstrat76 said:
Oh man, I saw that Neotek earlier in the week....tempting - where would I put it...eh, let's change the title of the thread to "Need a new larger house" as most of us probably do....

Playing around more with the Toft - haven't decided on the return yet, but regarding the cables - I actually tried a real short cable to the monitor and it did seem like there was a decrease, though nothing scientific.

However, a good chunk of the noise is from the channel inline monitor being always connected (since the mute is before the opamps) so that's the major source. There are recommendations to pull a chip on the inline monitors effectively disabling it, and thus the noise. What's the point, I like inline monitor feature and if I did that, I might as well just get another console anyway.

What did work was this - simple: since all those inline monitors feed the mix bus, the master 2 buss insert interrupts that flow when in use, so I took Group 7 & 8, patched its output into the master insert "return", and the noise is gone. I can then route all input channels to group 7&8 instead of LR. There is still some noise on the group bus though, but nowhere near the level of the master buss with all those monitors feeding it. I would lose the 2 group busses for other processing though.

One thing to try next is to bypass the group fader and amps also, by using the group insert "send" directly patched into the master insert "return". That should eliminate the group bus noise.

Its still a kludge though.

Regardless, I love the config of this board so I'm just playing around until I can determine what to do with it.


But that Neotek.....
Click to expand...

I was wondering, since you are investigating the possibilities available to 'fix' the noise problem, if you have considered assigning an aux pair to be the monitor master? Or am I not understanding the noise you're having?? Mine was noisy @ the mon level master and the two speaker out assigns. Since I don't use that function any longer I have no noise. But in reading your solution here, it seems you could achieve this with the aux buss there-by leaving your 7/8 buss to it's duty as a sub-master. I do understand the convenience of the inline monitor buss and the design reflects this classic setup, however the failure to properly integrate it makes it a problem. The use of the aux buss still allows an inline mixer dedicated to monitoring whats coming in. If I remember, flipping the input/monitor still leaves all the auxes hot with whatever input is happening. Of course I AM old and the memory fails on occasion. Uhh what was I sayin????

Of course I'm only guessing at how you're set up and I'm sure there's information in here somewhere about your track count/ outboard/ etc......My last 24 track set-up before the DAW had the console as the center of the universe and everything came and went from this.... Seems this is where you're living now??
 
ecc83 said:
Hah! No need to be coy about it Cavedog! So you 'arf inched' some cable and shit! I spent 10 years in the network hardware industry and I am STILL using 'acquired' cables and outlets!

But, I cannot see the RF implications? Unless the system is generating out of band RF or there is a big local field what the worry? No cable system will reduce hiss (unless there IS some RF/digital hash around and it would be better to track that down and fix it) Silver conductors are useful at RF but have no advantage for audio*. Silver is only marginally more conductive than Copper. D.R.E.AM. to solder tho'but!

A balanced input will be measurably noisier than a well designed unbalanced one fed from a low Z but still around -100dBu so should not present a problem.

*Despite the claims of the Russ Andrews brigade.

Dave.
Click to expand...

I love Techies! I never mentioned RF...And there's none in my area to speak of. At least none that can get past the grid...

I get the technical paper part of the wire specs. Been there. Done that. And I'm not an expert. But whatever this crap that I fished out of the dumpster after a demo of a server room many years back is, it is absolutely the quietest easiest to use cable I've ever met. I'll get to the studio sometime today and see if there's a brand and a number on it anywhere.

Of course....some amount of noise can be reduced by paying attention to the proper earthing (thats what they call it on the island right??)

I had a small isolation transformer for years. And everything was part of everything else as far as the grounding was concerned. Quiet. Yes. When I moved I put everything back up and left the transformer out. Still quiet.

I dunno. Electricity is "The Mysteries" .
 
fstrat76 said:
I contacted the guy with the other Neotek - he said total 600lbs. That can't be, but crazy if it is.
Click to expand...

I'm finding it hard to believe that console is 600lbs...maybe 400lbs.
Is he getting that out of the specs...or just guesstimating? Maybe with the stand it's heavier and unruly to carry.

Anyway...the trick to moving/installing consoles of that size/weight is to remove the stand/legs, pull all the channels, and then the frame becomes more manageable, both with the weight, and for maneuvering around corners and through doors.

That console is about the same length as my Trident, though my Trident is not as deep...and I had no problem getting into my studio...and I have steps, then three hard corners going right-left-right, and then through two narrow doorways.
After removing the channel modules, I just taped some cardboard around the frame and just pushed/slid it down the steps, tipped it on end, and then around the corners.

I know you're not really considering it...but don't let the bigger consoles scare you off...if you should decide to not stay with the Toft.
 
I've been recording on my Audio Technica RMX64 the past two days and really love it's mixer section. The EQ section has a great ability to switch to high and low shelves and the pres are great (phantom power too!) I heard that Neotek designed it but can't find any proof of that.

Does anyone know if that's true?
 
miroslav said:
I'm finding it hard to believe that console is 600lbs...maybe 400lbs.
Is he getting that out of the specs...or just guesstimating? Maybe with the stand it's heavier and unruly to carry.

Anyway...the trick to moving/installing consoles of that size/weight is to remove the stand/legs, pull all the channels, and then the frame becomes more manageable, both with the weight, and for maneuvering around corners and through doors.

That console is about the same length as my Trident, though my Trident is not as deep...and I had no problem getting into my studio...and I have steps, then three hard corners going right-left-right, and then through two narrow doorways.
After removing the channel modules, I just taped some cardboard around the frame and just pushed/slid it down the steps, tipped it on end, and then around the corners.

I know you're not really considering it...but don't let the bigger consoles scare you off...if you should decide to not stay with the Toft.
Click to expand...

Skateboard?

Dave.
 
So I am returning the Toft ATB. The noise, the mute switch noise, crosstalk are just too much for this kind of money. The replacement exhibited similar issues. The EQ's were the only good part, I really liked those. The quality of my Tascam M2600 is much better than that of a new Toft, and way less noise.

The other consoles with links here are all great, would love to have one for my business someday, but just too big for my home.

So I am back to square one, putting the Tascam M2600 back into temp service for now and looking at other alternatives.

I see some cool all-analog stuff like Trident 80b Series 500 EQ, and this Neve 5060 Centerpiece. That 5060 is expensive, but really not a whole lot more than the Toft, but its a whole new approach. I mean I don't need 24 EQ's or that many Auxes, etc. so this may be a good way to "build" up exactly what I need. (I started this thread wanting to upgrade new for under $3k, so much for that!)

What do you guys think about the hybrid modular approach?
 
That Neve 5060 probably has a nice sound and options...but the thing about the "Neve sound" has mostly to do with the Neve pres and the EQs...and you get none with that with the 5060. It's an expensive summing box with some additional controller features, etc....and if offers a lot of options foe adding more to it...but then you're going to be spending even more.

I'm sure it's worth the $8000 considering how much other Never/Portico stuff costs, not to mention their line of full-featured consoles...but for $8k, I would rather invest in up-scale used console, even if it needed some work.
I think this 5060 is a white elephant, and you would have to be sure it was going to be long-time keeper...otherwise you might have a lot of trouble selling it and getting your money out of it...unlike a good console that you've maybe refurbished, which will hold it's value on the resale market well down the road.

I'm not totally sure what your needs are with a console (you probably mentioned it somewhere in this thread)...and I think if it's an integral part of your rig and how you like to work, then any other solutions might work, but you're always going to be thinking about the console.

AFA the 2600...again, what is it that you expect from the console? The 2600 will be OK for basic use, but it's not going to "lift" your signal in any way to some analog goodness. I went through the same thing with the 3500...and while it was usable, it wasn't really doing anything for me.
Not to say I told you so...but I said up front that the Toft might not be the best choice for you...not for that money either.
I know you were looking for a small footprint, easy to ship...etc....but honestly, if you want a decent console, just bite the bullet and do what you have to....make the trip, do the upgrades/mods, put in the time/effort as much as it may be a PITA, but in the end you will be very happy when you sit at that console....whatever you get.
I mean...if you're talking Trident 80b EQs and Neve Portico stuff...not for nothing, but I think you would want to hook that stuff up to something that would preserve the audio quality...not something that will feel like the weak link in your chain.
 
miroslav said:
Not to say I told you so...but I said up front that the Toft might not be the best choice for you...not for that money either.
I know you were looking for a small footprint, easy to ship...etc....but honestly, if you want a decent console, just bite the bullet and do what you have to....make the trip, do the upgrades/mods, put in the time/effort as much as it may be a PITA, but in the end you will be very happy when you sit at that console....whatever you get.
I mean...if you're talking Trident 80b EQs and Neve Portico stuff...not for nothing, but I think you would want to hook that stuff up to something that would preserve the audio quality...not something that will feel like the weak link in your chain.
Click to expand...

The Toft was the only "new" unit on the market, with the features I was looking for and it was already over my price range at the time. With the latest revision, I also thought there would be an improvement in the console, since most of the issues with the console go back quite awhile. Knowing the past issues though, buying new was the only way to be sure.

But its not a problem, this is all a great learning experience. We all come here to seek others opinions, and those are valuable.

Moving on - I like that Neotek you listed above - but I believe those are from the mid-80's, and still - its really big.

As far as that 5060, yeah, you are right - but most things these days are white elephants (especially digital), it being a Neve brand though will carry its value longer than most other brands. But there's always a risk anything new becoming obsolete and worthless in a short time. It is analog though (with the exception of the transport), and those specs should be top notch. I'm not tied to it, as I am still looking for options.

What do I want in a console? Not sure - I usually start ITB with an arrangement, setup a sync to tape, then track individual tracks to tape or DAW. There is the rare occasion I will record a full band (live drums). I've basically have used all the functionality of the M2600, including the inline monitoring while using headphone cue mixes. For mix, I then take up to 16 tracks/stems of DAW output into an Apogee, then the mixer, and any other tape tracks, and mix them to two track tape (Tascam 42).

Not sure Summing is the answer either - but the modular analog approach is worth investigating a little more (as well as full consoles!)
 
I really liked the sound of my Soundtracs console. It was the first time the EQ on a console I had made me smile with what it did to the sound...not that I've had a rich pedigree of consoles I used, but the Soundtracs was a step up.
 
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