Need new smaller mixer

fstrat76 said:
No, nothing connected except speakers, all controls at zero. Only master fader up to unity.
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What I was meaning is that there is not a +4, -10 miss match? However for an increase of noise it would have to be a -10 out of the mixer and a +4 on the monitors.

Is the hiss the same on the record outs or just the monitor outs?

Alan.
 
The specification gives the Main Output's noise level at -75dBu and if that is a weighted figure it is unremarkable to bloody poor IMHO.

At these sorts of prices I would expect you chaps to have a decent audio mV meter at your disposal? (I have a superb Wayne-Kerr-Radford microV noise meter that I can't GIVE away!

Dave.
 
I don't have anything close to 24-channel, but I don't use the master section for anything. I'm still evaluating the new Behringer, but there is noise on the 2-buss out. I suspect I will be using my standard practice 4-buss for output
 
ecc83 said:
The specification gives the Main Output's noise level at -75dBu and if that is a weighted figure it is unremarkable to bloody poor IMHO.

At these sorts of prices I would expect you chaps to have a decent audio mV meter at your disposal? (I have a superb Wayne-Kerr-Radford microV noise meter that I can't GIVE away!

Dave.
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Yeah, this is completely my fault for not learning more about these specs - I had thought a "new" board would have had been better spec'd. Live and learn.

I still have the option of upgrading the master section, or returning the unit altogether and keeping my Tascam M2600. For the price of the Toft I could add some mic pre's, summing device, etc. Maybe even repair the tascam.
 
fstrat76 said:
I still have the option of upgrading the master section, or returning the unit altogether and keeping my Tascam M2600. For the price of the Toft I could add some mic pre's, summing device, etc. Maybe even repair the tascam.
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Or...if you return the Toft, just hang on a bit more and keep looking for a better board/better deal.
I shopped for a console upgrade to my Tascam 3500 for like...10 years.....OK, maybe the first 5-6 years it was more of a thought, where I kinda kept an eye out for consoles to upgrade to....but the last 4 years I was actively looking, and seriously considering.
Sweetbeats can tell you...I was picking his brain for quite awhile. There was a member here (briank) who had an MCI that he was planning to sell. We went back-n-forth for about 2 years...he was going to finish some mods and them sell it...but then he just faded away, off the forums.
Then the last 2 years before I finally found my Trident...I passed on on earlier Trident, looked at a couple of Amek boards, and was close to another MCI from down in Nashville from a reputable seller....but it was too big. Then a Trident 65 came up down in NYC, but it had some issues, and the guy sounded flakey....and just as I decided to pass on it, like the next few days my Trident came up for sale....and it was the right one, at the right price, and at the right location for me to go pick it up.

So...don't give up too quick, and don't get discouraged. I know it sucks that the Toft isn't blowing your skirt up at the moment, and you might return it...but if you do, keep looking. It seems used console sales come in waves for some reason. Like I haven't seen a Trident 65 or 24 London or 75 come up for sale in quite awhile...yet a few years ago they were popping up everywhere for awhile.

If I was you, I would make the call quick on the Toft...you know, out of sight out of mind... if you're thinking of returning it...
...or bite the bullet and drop the extra $$$ to have it sorted out and upgraded.
 
Yeah, I remember BrianK - he was pretty active here for a while.

I'm already in contact about the Toft so I'll decide what happens to that very soon. I want to check in with Jim Williams also.

The only thing discouraging is the quality of new stuff these days.

But I'm not giving up that easily!
 
fstrat I'm really curious about the answer to my question about whether or not the noise you are hearing out of the main buss outs is with nothing assigned to the main buss?
 
If ALL the assign switches on all 24 channels are unlatched (nothing assigned to the main buss) and there otherwise is nothing assigned to the main buss and you are getting higher than expected noise, put a 150 ohm resistor across pins 2 & 3 of any mic jack, leave the trim fully counter-clockwise, monitor the main buss outs and A/B nothing assigned to the main buss vs. the dummy mic channel assigned to the main buss. See if there is any change to the noise level when you assign the dummy mic channel.
 
sweetbeats said:
fstrat I'm really curious about the answer to my question about whether or not the noise you are hearing out of the main buss outs is with nothing assigned to the main buss?
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Nothing assigned, LR and all channel groups assignment switches off. Noise is even with mutes on or off.

Looking at the block diagram, the channel monitor mute switches are before each monitor amp, - so that would mean all monitor controls feed the main buss all the time?

I think I read somewhere that some of the fault might be the TL072 opamps in the master section - but that's getting out of my area or expertise (or lack thereof).
 
I would have to read what you are reading regarding the 072 parts in the master section.

The reason I'm wondering what happens when you assign some kind of load to the master section is sometimes an amplifier is noisiest when its at idle...when there's no load. So I was wondering what happens when you assign *something* to the main buss, and we don't want that something bring any noise in from the outside world so that's why I suggested dummy loading a mic amp (150 ohm resistor between pins 2 & 3 of the XLR mic jack) and then assigning that to the main buss to see if things quieted down. That would, depending on a drop in noise level, abate the issue to some lesser or greater degree because in the real world you are never going to record -nothing- off the main buss...there would always be something assigned to the main buss and if that load settles the noise then so settles the concern.

Its a long shot.

But it was itching in my brain so I thought to mention it.
 
Looking at the block diagram, the channel monitor mute switches are before each monitor amp, - so that would mean all monitor controls feed the main buss all the time?
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Not sure I follow you...

The monitor buss is pre-channel fade, but has its own mutes...so the monitor buss feed from each strip is always live regardless of the channel mute, but each monitor buss feed on each channel strip has its own mute, so whether or not each monitr feed is live you control with the monitor mute on each strip. Now re-reading your question again, yes the mute controls (whether monitor buss or channel input mutes) are pre fader input buffer and output booster amp...so those amps and their intrinsic noise are always feeding the main buss...not sure why they did it that way. Wondering if the noise floor is different between the 24, 16, and 8 channel models.
 
sweetbeats said:
I would have to read what you are reading regarding the 072 parts in the master section.

The reason I'm wondering what happens when you assign some kind of load to the master section is sometimes an amplifier is noisiest when its at idle...when there's no load. So I was wondering what happens when you assign *something* to the main buss, and we don't want that something bring any noise in from the outside world so that's why I suggested dummy loading a mic amp (150 ohm resistor between pins 2 & 3 of the XLR mic jack) and then assigning that to the main buss to see if things quieted down. That would, depending on a drop in noise level, abate the issue to some lesser or greater degree because in the real world you are never going to record -nothing- off the main buss...there would always be something assigned to the main buss and if that load settles the noise then so settles the concern.

Its a long shot.

But it was itching in my brain so I thought to mention it.
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Makes sense....would have to find a 150-ohm resistor somewhere...fat chance of finding that around here.....lol
 
Just plug a MIC in.

Either way, the spec on the product page looks conventional - meaning not the good stuff, but worst case
 
yup...he could do that too, but as i said i was trying to avoid introduction of any noise from the outside world (outside of the mixer) but...whatever.
 
garww said:
Just plug a MIC in.

Either way, the spec on the product page looks conventional - meaning not the good stuff, but worst case
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Yeah - looks like the spec page on my Tascam for the master fader, all assign off, fader at unity gain is -102 dBV. That looks better than the toft spec. Ugh.

A replacement unit has been ordered and will be checked for noise prior to my receiving a new unit, but the spec is the spec.

I'll check out the Mic In test in a little bit when I get back to the mixer.
 
i suspect the mic assign test will result in no change...i suspect you are hearing 48 dual opamps hissing at you. A comparative spec between the different models would be helpful, but Toft's specs are a bit...lacking IMO...hard to tell.
 
How much does it hiss if you have say some tracks of audio through it and you have to turn it down so it does not blow your ears out. I am just saying this coz I have had an engineer in my studio turn up my master and say, "Gee thats a noisy console", then I hit play and its like, "fu@K thats loud". True signal to noise. All analog has some noise, agreed it should still be reasonable.

Just to make things clear, you have every channel muted, all aux channel sends turned off, the bus masters down, and the record outs (not monitor outs) are noisy? And its audio hiss not a digital ground loop somewhere?

Alan.
 
Yes I'm glad Alan stated this ^^^^

My Tascam proto console seems noisy and then I actually run some audio through it and realize I have gain stages up to "blasting" stage...I turn things down to a usable level...its still maybe a little more noisier than I'd like, but it has inescapable character that I can't change so I take its quirks with the good. But what is the real-world noise like?

I will say after looking at the block diagram and pics of the Toft opened up...well...I'm not as impressed as I was when they first hit the market years ago. I don't like the PCB mounted jacks, and for that kind of money it would be nice if the there were individually mounted modules rather than groups of 8...yes it looks like the switches are better than garden variety, and the pots aren't plastic (same style as is in every pre 4-digit model number Tascam console in the 80's (i.e. they switched when the 1500/1600/2500/2600/3500/3700 consoles came out). I wonder what grade of faders Toft used.

Anyway, there's just some things I see that don't line up with what I would want if I was dropping that kind of money on a console. I really feel your struggle...its like nothing exists with the build quality and features in the price range, or at all for that matter in an analog console. I think Miro kind of hit a sweet spot with what he ended up with...albeit was used and he went through it and finished modifications and such...anyway...Soundcraft 400 or 600 series, Soundtracs...but they all need work by now...geez. Maybe it is good to work through whatever needs to happen to get the Toft to be what you want it to be.

Tough spot.
 
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