Need new smaller mixer

[RFR]

Yes, I have a DAW/hybrid system, but to be honest, I am getting more and more tired of the constant digital upgrades and the planned obsolescence. My M2600 and other analog gear has lasted over 20 years. I just want to make and mix music at this point rather than spend a lot of time on constant digital upgrades or repair for older analog gear.

I hear you.
While the analog gear doesn't have the versatility of modern digital gear. It just gets the job done. One never heard of a tape machine "crashing"

Whenever I go to the phone store to get a new phone (every three or four years ), they laugh at me and my phone and tell me it shouldn't have lasted that long. Most times they aren't even familiar with the model, and veiw it as some kind of antique.

Digital recording has been going the same way.
While there are great advances in the technology, its a pain to have stuff that was great 3 years ago now obsolete, useless and unsellable because its worthless.
Sure sounds like there is some planned obsolescence to me.


I wonder sometimes if the modern recordist is into music, or is just of the "gotta have the latest iPhone" mentality.


But on your situation, spend some time doing your homework. A well built board will last. I have an older than yours Tascam m520 still going strong. I cleaned up some pots, and changed a vu meter when I got it, but other than that, it's still going strong.

 

[sr71rules]

Hey Dave,

I've just read the full review, and beyond being controllable via a webpage, instead of an app, I'm struggling to see how this mixer differs from many others on the market. Harmon owns a lot of brands, and is doing their best to integrate them but I'm just not seeing the magic in this mixer you are. Can you explain why you think it meets a lot of needs? My preference, in the studio, is to take a more analog approach but I can totally see the power made available to people via mixer like the Soundcraft.. it's just not for me. In a live situation though, I've been digital for many years and wouldn't be happy to go back to analog

fstrat76 - My current thinking in their area is around assembling a mixer from different components. An Ashly 508 as the 'main' mixer, plus some Ashly 308s to bolster channel count. Adding in Extra EQs with a Speck 316, compressors with ACP88s or Klark Teknik Square ONE Dynamics. Using a few Tascam M-1bs for extra aux buses... etc, etc., Lots of rack mount options.

Build a desk with some slanted 19" rack rails and you can assemble, patch and wire to your hearts content.

Much of the above listed equipment can be had for relatively short money on the used market and the sky is the limit in terms of quality upgrades. Many of the current crop of 500 series chassis will support a system like this where you can mix and max your way to the perfect mixer. 4 channels of Neve, 2 of SSL and a pair of Helios, etc.

Something to ponder...

 

[witzendoz]

I would not bother with the UI24, it is not what you need according to the requirements. I looked at one for live use but I did not like the idea of no surface so really it feels like a computer device anyway. I actually bought a QSC Touchmix16 for live use, but even this has a small touch screen and runs better with a remote Ipad, sigh, but I bought it as I got a great deal on a demo unit and have done some great shows with it, however I am already thinking of selling it and buying something else, but no hurry. I get the feeling you really want a physical mixer LOL, I always prefer a physical mixer analog or digital.

Alan.

 

[fstrat76]

Yes, a physical mixer for sure - I am re-doing a big portion of my studio but its been a challenge keeping outboard gear in the analog domain with new or near-new gear.

For example, someone recommended the new Dynaudio LYD 7 monitors. Nice units, but researching further, they are class D with DSP processing. Not sure why I'd want to get digital amped monitors if I end up with an expensive analog console.

I looked at the soundcraft ui24 and it won't fit my needs for my studio.

I'll probably post other threads for suggestions on monitors (looking at Adam A7x) and compressors (dbx 166a?) but right now the focus is the main board.

 

[witzendoz]

dbx 166a compressors. Well, I like DBX stuff but I have only ever owned old DBX stuff, The dbx 166a I am not sure about, mixed reviews, I would use one live but not sure about studio. Have you thought about something like a FMR RNC? A bit harder to use but the results are excellent, the only thing is that it is a stereo compressor so you can only use it for 1 mono signal at a time, but in the same price range as the DBX.

There are plenty of secondhand compressors on the market as everyone moves to software (fools). My favourite is the TL Audio 5021, there are about 3 versions the difference is the fast / slow release selector being 4 position or (I think) 2 position. I also like The TL audio Fat Man (again a stereo compressor but great presets), and the Bellari RP 520, then again I may be strange to some people LOL. New they may be out of your price range, but secondhand you may pick one up.

Alan

 

[garww]

.."they are class D with DSP processing".

Ya, I know. Everytime I look to try some powered monitors, I keep thinking the amps are so '70s car stereo : ) I know they're much better than that (for the bi-amp, if nothing else), but the image remains : )

I can bi-amp my old tannoy, and there is one Harmon Kardon amp, here, I wouldn't mind trying on the top end. Those are aluminium dome tweets.

It is your money to spend as you please, after all.

 

[gecko zzed]

Digital recording has been going the same way.
While there are great advances in the technology, its a pain to have stuff that was great 3 years ago now obsolete, useless and unsellable because its worthless.
Sure sounds like there is some planned obsolescence to me.

I wonder whether you can expand on this?

At it is, I can't say that I'm convinced. I say this because I am running an firewire interface that is approaching thirteen years old, and it is still going strong. I acknowledge that its vulnerability is firewire. However that is a function of the surrounding technology (i.e. the computer) rather than the recording technology itself. The other vulnerability will be incompatability between it and newer operating systems. Again, that's not the recording technology. I note, though, that my interface functions on systems from XP to W10.

Live mixing technology may be a different matter. While there have been significant advances here, it doesn't necessarily make old gear obsolete. For example, I stopped doing live mixing a year or so ago, so I avoided having to upgrade gear and learn digital systems. Nevertheless, I still have my old analog gear, and were I to be pressganged into doing a PA job somewhere, it would still do the job, and I would still be able to pull a good sound.

But I do agree that some audio gear is now virtually unsellable. An audio acquaintance of mine has PA gear that is even more ancient than mine. It still works, but he can't sell it. That's because no-one wants 30kg poweramps these days. They are only good as boat anchors.

 

[sweetbeats]

I think it really depends on the manufacturer, design, value engineering, etc.

I would say in general most things are not as robust as the same type of product was in times past. There are, of course, lots and lots of exceptions to this, but the market is always demanding more for less and in the effort of achieving that on an ongoing basis longevity and serviceability are often sacrificed. And the marketing people do a good job of distracting us from the reality...and I can say this because we keep coming out in droves and dropping our money on products that aren't designed to last as well.

But like I said there are lots and lots of exceptions. I just think there's a general trend.

I had a Yamaha digital rig for a decade or more that worked flawlessly...multiple devices interfaced, flying faders...it just worked. Will it work at 15 or 20 years? Dunno. But I always had good luck with the Yamaha stuff.

On the analog side I'm out in the shop right now staring at a Behringer headphone distribution amp I bought new, barely used, and the right main channel is dead...global problem I traced back to the main buss amp and it's all tiny $&@!#% surface-mount garbage. More for less and there's no point for me in working on it...I don't have the right kind of iron and the risk of failed repair or causing other damage just isn't worth it. Garbage. When I opened it up and compared it to the Samson unit I bought to replace it, the unit I believe Behringer copied to make theirs (but cutting massive corners), I had the see-touch-feel example of more is less.

Pics in this post here: https://homerecording.com/bbs/general-discussions/analog-recording-and-mixing-tape-and-gear/i-need-new-headphone-distribution-amp-recommendations-393125/3/#post4438544

Anyway, my tape machines that are 25 years to nearly 50 years old now have needed lots of work of course to get going or keep going, but at least they can be worked on. And the older they are the easier they are to work on. Hey if a relay is bad on the Ampex I can reach around behind and burnish the contacts with some emery paper...open frame "truck" relays...can keep it limping along for quite awhile that way. Yes they take up a lot more space, but at least you can physically trace wires and get out your toolbox and keep it going...I can't do that when a surface-mount logic chip decides to go tits-up.

And there are people with vast background experience that say that Ampex is still one of the best sounding recorders ever.

My point? I'm not sure how far we've come with the whole more for less thing. I guess it works out fine if we're okay with a disposable mentality. $1 menu rules. And somebody else will pay for my healthcare.

When "garbage in" takes its toll.

Mixers, even budget models, used to be made with through-hole components, each channel on a separate vertical PCB assembly, metal individually nutted pots...now it's all one horizontal PCB with surface-mount parts including the plastic PCB-mounted pots. And they don't sound the same. But the marketing people got us to eat things like "transparent" and "British-inspired EQ" and we convinced ourselves they were right.

Through-hole components are slowly going extinct.

Hey, fstrat I have to admit this thread is a bit distressing. Like, I like nosing around in the current market when somebody says "I need a device that will do X-Y-Z...what's out there?"

I can't find ANYTHING new that has the features like (for instance) the 80s/early 90s Tascam consoles (the semi-inline functionality, I/O features, routing flexibility...)...wow.

It's such a niche market anymore I guess. People have those features and more ITB and people aren't needing that kind of feature set in an analog console I guess. The Toft is an exception...but that's about all I can find that's new. There are all sorts of really great consoles in your price range used that would have some kick-ass features and would be sonically superior to the M-2600, but forget the footprint being smaller. Geez what a frustrating conundrum.

 

[ecc83]

"You can't please all........" !
Peeps love their Smartphones and iPads but you simply could not have them without SMT construction but build a MIXER that way and you are in league with Old Nick!

Don't get me wrong, I HATE the intrusion of SMT into things like guitar amps and other gear that is 'big enough' to have 'proper' PCBs* but if folks want the Bells &Whistles, in a reasonable space at a reasonable cost? Gotta do it. And there is NO reason why SMT built kit should be any less reliable than thru-hole construction. No, it is the servicing difficulty of SMT that bugs me. Going to be a LOT of stuff going to landfill. We will soon need another Earth.

I would like to see legislation that forced manufacturers to setup (or license) repair centres so that kit could be fixed. If the likes of Behringer HAD to mop up their own shit for say ten years after sale, they would build less and build better. Then, local techs could demand service replacement PCBs and keep stuff going. But, The World is going in the wrong ideological direction to do that.

Also Joe Consumer is a lot to blame. He does not want to pay for quality built gear (but expects it!) and certainly does not want to pay a repair tech a decent wedge but how else can such a tech invest in SM repair kit without a decent income?

Just sat here and taken my Berry HA400 H/P amp apart. Looks ok. 4580 SM chips (of a type I have changed before with a Weller Magnastat. Tricky but not impossible) One oddity! A 1000mfd cap' of 105C rating! This box will never get that hot. Beh's must have ordered a million of those caps in by mistake!

*How big do people think a 4 ch (say) mixer would be if it used turret board construction? All valves?! Peeps like PCBs NOW because they did not have to service kit that used them in the 50's and 60s! 'Consumer' grade PCBs were fekking AWFUL. Why?! The old guard cried do they make stuff like THIS now?!!
Today of course TB construction is reserved for VERY expensive guitar amps which in fact would be more consistent, cheaper and sound JUST the Fekkin' same if made with PCBs! (or even SMT where applicable!)

Dave.

 

[fstrat76]

Hey, fstrat I have to admit this thread is a bit distressing. Like, I like nosing around in the current market when somebody says "I need a device that will do X-Y-Z...what's out there?"

I can't find ANYTHING new that has the features like (for instance) the 80s/early 90s Tascam consoles (the semi-inline functionality, I/O features, routing flexibility...)...wow.

It's such a niche market anymore I guess. People have those features and more ITB and people aren't needing that kind of feature set in an analog console I guess. The Toft is an exception...but that's about all I can find that's new. There are all sorts of really great consoles in your price range used that would have some kick-ass features and would be sonically superior to the M-2600, but forget the footprint being smaller. Geez what a frustrating conundrum.

Yep - that's why I came here, to get solutions to the problem of not really finding anything useful on the "new" market.

I might need to adjust my thinking here.

I guess I can look at used analog desks too, more recent than 25 years old, with better quality than my Tascam M2600, and with general reliability.

If I drop from 24 to 16 channels, I'll save a little space anyway.

So feel free to suggest those used analog consoles as well. I just don't want to spend a whole lot of time on maintenance. The Toft is about 5K+ new, so my budget will be in that area.

 

[mr.blisset]

dbx 166a compressors. Well, I like DBX stuff but I have only ever owned old DBX stuff, The dbx 166a I am not sure about, mixed reviews, I would use one live but not sure about studio.

Just wanted to chime in here.

The 166a sounds pretty average. However the original 80s DBX 166 with the colored knobs do sound good. It has some similar opamps circuitry etc to the famous 160VU. Its not a 160VU obviously but they do sound good. The original 166 was popular with 90s hip hop guys in the studio. You can pick the up dirt cheap as the 166a/166xs/166xl have such a bad reputation.

 

[miroslav]

...I am running an firewire interface that is approaching thirteen years old, and it is still going strong.

I got that beat...I'm running 4 Layla24 boxes using PCI boards...and they are already 15 years old and still going strong.
I have upgraded my DAW computer 3 times in all those years, but that was mainly to get more speed, more RAM and better overall computer processing/busing, plus to move to a newer OS (went from W2K to XP to Win7).
So that's my core "digital" system...though I do also have an outboard clock box, which is also several years old.
The only digital "upgrades" that I make are software...but much of that is by choice, and of course, it sometimes forces you to upgrade other aspects of the DAW....which was the reason for the OS upgrades...but that's to be expected, since the whole world tends to move to a new OS within a few years after release.
That said...I could still be running on my old W2K machine with those Layla24 boxes...but I would have had to stop buying new plugs several years ago...but that's a personal choice. IOW...if stop buying new software now...my entire digital system could run as-is for another 20 years...as long as the current computer keeps going, and for that, I have an identical spare ready to go.

Yep - that's why I came here, to get solutions to the problem of not really finding anything useful on the "new" market.

I might need to adjust my thinking here.

I guess I can look at used analog desks too, more recent than 25 years old, with better quality than my Tascam M2600, and with general reliability.

If I drop from 24 to 16 channels, I'll save a little space anyway.

So feel free to suggest those used analog consoles as well. I just don't want to spend a whole lot of time on maintenance. The Toft is about 5K+ new, so my budget will be in that area.

I went through the same upgrade thinking and hand-wringing for a few years...I had (still have it ) a TASCAM M3500 that I upgraded from to a Trident 24 London.

The Toft to me was/is overpriced for the quality, and I see a lot of people dumping them, and of course, asking a lot, since they're trying to get their money back out of them. Not saying they are complete junk or anything like that...just think you will do better to put the money into something else.
I searched for a few years...waiting for the right used console to come up fairly locally, so I could pick it up instead of dealing with shipping...but I even considered shipping because I kept seeing decent consoles for sale, but like several states away from me.
In the end, the right console came up for sale and it was only 3 hours away.
I got the Trident for a really good price, and then I dropped about $2-3k into it to fully re-cap and re-chip it, and all new faders (did the work myself), since the previous owner had already upgraded the power supplies to a much more robust solution, and also the power/grounding distribution scheme inside the console...I wanted to complete the overhaul and finish what he started. Plus I also did some mods to the channel EQs, giving them a wider purpose. Everything came out well, and the console is better than new.
There's an entire thread here in the Analog forum that I posted...with pictures too.
It was well worth the effort...and the "upgrade" from the TASCAM 3500 really feels like a serious upgrade with the Trident...both in sound quality and overall aesthetics. Not to mention...10-15 years from now, I'll probably be able to resell it and get my money back out of it.

Anything that is more recent than 25 years old but a good analog console, will most likely cost you a bit more than $5k...and don't short-change yourself by cutting down the channels from 24 to 16...you will regret it. Still, for $5k, you can find a pretty decent used analog console that might need some overhauling, but once that's done...the console should be good for the next 15-20 years of service.

The point I'm making is that if you're going to upgrade analog gear...you need to take a bigger step to make it worthwhile.

 

[ecc83]

Used Mixers

?

Dave.

 

[fstrat76]

I read similar things about the Toft. As far as I can tell, most of the used ones for sale are pre-Rev 3, but yes, I agree, they may be overpriced. It sure is tough upgrading analog without a small fortune in money and/or time.

I'll take a look at some used analog mixers - could you guys throw out some more brands/models? Would like to stick with an 8 buss to move tracks back and forth from tape and interact 16 DAW tracks.

 

[garww]

I believe I mentioned having a tech upgrade the 2600. Of course, I was lusting after Burson op-amps and the like

 

[fstrat76]

You did, and I have considered that, but the board is exhibiting other issues, like buss 3 not working (it eventually works, so something may be sticking like a relay or something). I could get some external pre's, 16-24 might be a lot though. I can prob replace op-amps myself; I'm not sure how much all of that would cost in time and money though.

 

[ecc83]

" I can prob replace op-amps myself; " From what TOO what? There is very little better for general signal processing than the NE5532. The LM4562 has a few dB lower noise and slightly higher drive capability but in 99% of circuit positions you won't tell. They are probably 5X the price but are at least a 'drop in' for the 5532.
Grannies and eggs notwithstanding, swapping FET op amps for bipolars will improve noise in some cases but is a lot of work due to bias currents.

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

I believe I mentioned having a tech upgrade the 2600. Of course, I was lusting after Burson op-amps and the like

I considered overhauling my 3500...but I came to the conclusion it would make more sense to overhaul a better board if I was oging to go in that deep...since the work and cost for caps and chips would end up about the same. Actually...I think a recap & rechip on the 3500 would have been much more work considering how they stack the PCBs, 4-channels as one module....and then there was all that ribbon cable stuff to deal with. The individual pop in/out channels on the Trident were pretyy easy to work on...well, it was still a lot of work de-soldering all those caps, but once I got a nice groove going, it wasn't hard to work on the actual modules with the single PCB.
Not sure if the 2600 has the same kind of build structure as the 3500.

Burson op-amps...yeah, keep on lusting.
At $60 a pop...with about a dozen op-amps needed per channel...times 28 channels, plus the 24 monitor channels...well, do the math... ...I could have just purchased a brand new Neotek Elite...and still saved a few bucks.

I went with Burr Brown chips for the main channels, and just replaced the stock TL chips in the monitor section with some new TL chips.
It sounds really, really good.

 

[garww]

You did, and I have considered that, but the board is exhibiting other issues, like buss 3 not working (it eventually works, so something may be sticking like a relay or something). I could get some external pre's, 16-24 might be a lot though. I can prob replace op-amps myself; I'm not sure how much all of that would cost in time and money though.

Ya, I had no problem accepting that, but since "parts" came up again, I thought I might say that the op-amp part can be overlooked when it comes too what you are getting out of the latest and greatest board, and some old build, alike. I've having some some sort of mental love affair fantasy about op-amps for many years, but I don't really have the eye vision - still I was just pricing parts online : ) I see Orange Amps is in the game

 

[garww]

..."At $60 a pop...with about a dozen op-amps needed per channel"..

buss outs would be fine