More adventures in Midiizerland!!!!

trancedental

trancedental

New member
I've been helping another local poster on here who lives nearby, optionalanalog, with troubleshooting his system, slaving a MSR16 to a TSR8 via the Midiizer. The MSR16 loses sync after 12-20 seconds & then has to chase & lock again & again.

So first we checked the heads of the MSR16 with a jewelers loupe & an LCD torch, found a bit of tape debris but nothing serious, cleaned that away & tried again. No luck & the same problem as before, changed the custom made accessory 2 D-Sub cable for an original Tascam one & then tried my Midiizer without any difference. Cleaned the D-Sub socket & tried again, still the same issue.

We checked the Midiizer was receiving a valid sync code from itself by taking it's output & sending it to the Midiizer slave input connection & the signal was fine. So we called it a day & had a beer!!!

So I eventually located my TSR8 service manual today & found the page which details the adjustments for capstan / tape speed both when in internal & external mode. I luckily found a online .pdf Tascam MSR16 service manual http://www.tascamvintage.com/Tascam_MSR-16.pdf which had similar instructions to those in the TSR8 service manual. Which involved using a "flutter" tape @ 3K or so recorded tone & an oscillator to check the exact frequency being used by the machine & the 2 adjustment positions on the capstan / speed PCB.

Being aware that a flutter / wow measurement tape & an oscillator would cost serious money I suggested that I felt that the service company that checked & aligned his MSR16 a while back should perhaps have checked the capstan speed on the recorder. Optionalanalog has got in contact with them & found out that the capstan speed was not checked, luckily the company have said they will send us a frequency counter & instructions on what to test for, more toys for us to mess about with then!!!

We're also waiting on a reply from a guy from Tascam Germany we have been in contact with regarding the problems with syncing his MSR16.

Optionalanalog is currently trying use the MSR16 as the master & TSR8 as the slave to see if that makes any real difference as regards the sync problems

Hopefully we are on the right track towards solving this great mystery but any advice from the regulars on here would be more than welcome!!
 
So you swapped the midiizer out for yours and it was still happening? That is bizarre. I was at a loss myself - I figured it was either the sync unit or the cables.

Did you ever manage to get an EPROM for your dead unit, by the way?
 
Hi JPM, I've got a pair on the way via the USA with help from Beck, in transit at present. The great Midiizer adventure continues it seems LOL!
 
trancedental said:
Hi JPM, I've got a pair on the way via the USA with help from Beck, in transit at present. The great Midiizer adventure continues it seems LOL!
Click to expand...

Oh, good. Optionalanalog was talking about sending me his for testing at one point, if he had it would have been a possible opportunity to snapshot the ROMs from it, but if you've got things in hand that's even better.
 
It could be a problem with the recorded code, slight drop outs can cause the lock to become unstable. Can you adjust the amount of freewheel of the chase machine so it does not drop out immediately? I have never used a Midiiizer, but have locked digital machines and computers to analog code on a tape machine.

Alan.
 
Things to check that can't hurt-

1. Be sure the dip switches on the back of the msr16 are set correctly.

2. Re-run the "learn" setup on the midiizer and master and slave to see if you get the all-okay again.

3. Even though you did a loop test on the midiizer by itself, try this-
Just for a couple of minutes ..connect the msr chnl 16 output track (smpte code is there right?) to a line mixer and THEN to the midiizer slave in. Crank the line mixer output up to about 7 or so and then test sync (goes without saying to not have headphones or speakers connected to the line mixer during the test !!!!)

If sync is now rock solid, just restripe the msr16 .. to a considerably higher level than you had before.

I've had to sometimes stripe smpte way up into the orange or above zero on some machines that fall out of sync where everything else is otherwise correctly set .... where normally you wouldn't go that high with the code on other machines.

How to stripe louder? A line mixer can also be used in reverse to do that when sending the code for striping out of the midiizer.

Of course, that then usually leaks into track 15 which may have to be kept as a guard track. But at least you'll know it's the level of the code that is the culprit.

4. If all else fails ....but using the setup with the msr16 as master and tsr8 as slave does work .... well ... that does give another solution.
 
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Thanks for your replies Tapewolf, witzendoz & thanks Trancedental for starting this thread. I tried the MSR16 as the master & TSR8 as the slave to see if that makes any difference but it was even worse as the TSR 8 never came close to locking and remained way off the mark even when prompted into play.Both TSR 8 Master & MSR16 Slave have Brand new RMG 911 1/2" tapes striped at 30 NDF -so dropout shouldn't be an issue. Please explain what does 'adjust the amount of freewheel of the chase machine so it does not drop out immediately' mean and how/where it is adjusted, the MTS 1000 manual states that manual calibration can be performed for ;1): Chase Response ( sets the slaves response in following the master -faster 0 - 9 slower ), 2):Servo Response ( Sets the slave capstan servo response 0-9 ), 3): Servo Damp ( sets the degree of slave servo damping - higher 0 - 9 lower ), 4):Servo Gain (sets the slave servo loop gain higher 0 - 9 lower ),5):Start Advance (sets how much ahead of the Master the Slave starts in Chase - less 0 - 9 more ), 6) FM Servo Trim ( adjusts the servo frequency for Slave only +25% /-20% default is 0%),7): Master brake, 8) Slave brake - ( sets ehere the Master / Slave transport starts braking in search - closer 0 - 9 farther ) ? Also the MSR16 manual states on page 14 : use of the rs-232 serial interface port ( accessory 2 ) ; 'The method of communications performed in compliance with the RS- 232C standard differ depending on the mechanical / electrical characteristics and system programs of the associated machines / devices, and a small error in communications thwarts the interfaced system and even causes this to run "wild". For detailed technical information about the use of the MSR-16's Serial Port, consult Tascam or your local Tascam dealer.'

This has been my experience almost every time I have tried to sync these two machines with the Midiiser as witnessed by Trancedental ( who kindly came over to help me ) last evening. It seems that most users have had success locking digital machines and computers to analogue code ( I have managed to lock up my TSR 8 to Tascam 2488neo successfully using the Midiiser, however this task merely requires the Midiiser to read the SMPTE stripe from the TSR 8, then convert that code to MTC and send it to the 2488neo. This does not require use of the RS- 232 serial interface at all. It would appear that the number of users who have reported successful locking of two Tape recorders, Tascam or otherwise, is miniscule by comparison to those successfully locking analogue to digital. This leads me to worry ( together with the statement in the MSR 16 manual quoted above ) that use of the RS-232 serial interface is inherently unstable and unreliable and even more so with the age of machines now, many of which may have drifted out of spec. If it wasn't for the success some have had syncing analogue tape machines, I would surmise that it I am flogging a dead horse here and be tempted to go look for an MSR 24, which might be an expensive doorstep given the lack of available parts and the last remaining set of heads costing a prohibitive £2000.
With Trancedental's valuable help the Midiiser and cables have been eliminated from a list of probable causes - so could anyone who has had issues locking two Tascam MSR TSR decks for reasons other than those, such as issues regarding Capstan speed out of spec / capstan control issues etc, please chime in to help us narrow things down and hopefully solve this problem. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.
 
The locking of 2 analog machines with a Midiizer was once common place, in fact a studio near me had a tascam 1" 16 track and a Fostex 16B lock together for many years, so it should work no problem at all.

Freewheel is the name given to how much time it takes a slave machine to stop after the loss of code. For example if the freewheel time was very short the slave would stop instantly the master was stopped, this would be an ideal world. However due to there sometimes being very short interruptions to code due to drop out, small electrical glitches or just a moment of dud code, by having a freewheel time of a second or 2 built in the slave would pickup the code again without stopping and you would not even hear it was doing it. The freewheel time setting I think would be in the Midiizer if it has in fact got this option (as I said I don't own one but someone here may know).

My setup was a MSR16 with code as master and a MX2424 digital 24 track as slave, the MX2424 would read the smpte code direct and there was a freewheel setting in the menu's. I also had a Atari 1040ST locked onto the code for midi devices and my console for the automation to give it song location.

Alan.

I forgot to mention that I always stripped at +1db, one red led lit. The cross talk was very minimal so I just made sure it was not a vocal or flute kind of track on 15. Oh by the way do you have the noise reduction switched off on the code tracks? there is a button for this, noise reduction can mess up the code.
 
Tonight we finally had some success, we managed to sync up for 20 minutes with 2 frames difference between the recorders, optionalanalog is going to talk to the Tascam sync expert guy in Germany tomorrow to check if this is within spec.

His MSR16 was serviced recently but plays back around +3dB higher than the record level on playback on all channels, maybe the engineer did this due to the condition of the heads, which are more worn towards one side, channels 14-16. The engineer mentioned that sync on track 16 was OK but not any signal over 8K, however so far sync between the 2 recorders has not worked properly when using track 16, maybe it is unusable for sync?

We recorded sync on track 8 without DBX noise reduction which made the difference compared with track 16. Optionalanalog prefers not to use DBX so I've suggested in future using track 1 for sync code, but it appears that playback levels might be needed to be trimmed down slightly on the way back towards the Midiizer. The manual says -5dB to -1dB is the best level range. It will be coming back at 3dB higher, we might just have to reduce the level on the channel playback PCB? Better checking the actual level with a multimeter first though!!!

Optionalanalog is going to try & sync & stripe the machines again tomorrow & check tonight wasn't a fluke, hopefully it will all work OK!!
 
Long story short - after eliminating various red herrings - it was the cables I had made that were at fault - although I sent pinout diagram posted on these forums with order ( over two months ago ) the manufacturer clearly did not deal with the shielding requirements of pin 7 / 14 adequatly for a 4 metre run - had it not been for Trancedental's loan of his original 5 metre Tascam PW5MD cable which works perfectly ( lock within 2 sub frames at 30 NDF - better than I was getting with 2 X Tascam 2488neo synced ) I would still be in the dark as to the cause - many thanks to Trancedental, Tapewolf and all who have contributed to solving this mystery. Hope I can get manufacturer of cables to put things right with proper shielding or whatever else might be wrong.
 
Hopefully you are getting closer to success. I bought a Midiizer 2 years ago and had a TSR-8 synced up to my MSSR-24. It worked perfectly. It did seem to be slow though for the 2 machines to lock up after rewind, but it always locked up everytime. I have never used it in practiced but I am glad I found one.

VP
 
Hopefully you are getting closer to success. I bought a Midiizer 2 years ago and had a TSR-8 synced up to my MSR-24. It worked perfectly. It did seem to be slow though for the 2 machines to lock up after rewind, but it always locked up everytime. I have never used it in a session but I am glad I found one.

VP
 
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Update on cable problem from company that manufactured my cable according to Tascam pinout after they compared them to Trancedental's original PW5MD ( which he kindly loaned me );
"The changes were pin 2 and 4 had a shield back to the outer shield and then to
the hood - this was not shown on the diagram and also the outer shield needs to
be terminated back to the hood. We used a proper metal shell but the original
cable uses a metaliased plastic. These are sub standard and I would recommend a
metal shell be used.

The other difference is the jack screws. The screws used by the original cable
manufacturer are a small (maybe) 3mm thread. "
So, finally got to the bottom of this problem after nearly three months of chasing red herrings - I almost sent MSR 16, TSR8 and MTS 1000 to techs for faultfinding - which would have cost me a pretty penny and yielded no solution.Thanks again to all who have input to this thread and in particular to Trancedental, without whose help this problem would never have been solved .
I had a real piece of luck last weekend - my better half found an almost pristine MSR 24 ( apart from pinchroller bearing wear causing annoying chugging sound )within hours of being listed on Ebay buy it now or best offer - I ended up getting it for £350 and have ordered new pinchroller which hopefully will alleviate the noise - so I will sync The MSR 24 to the TSR 8 , as Tapewolf does to minumise wear and tear on his MSR 24, ( thanks for the up on that to Tapewolf ) using my newly modified cables which now work perfectly.
If anyone needs correct copies of PW5MD cables that work, they can get them from ;
Connectors Cables Specialists (CCS) Ltd hold large stocks of Coax/ Coaxial cable and connectors, distributors of Edac, GTK, Telegartner, Hirose, IMS, Silvertronic, Huber Suhner and Radiall.
 
Well darn... somehow I missed this whole thread. I made my own cables for my MTS-1000 years ago with cable and connecters I bought from Mouser Electronics. Had no problems. Happy to see you got the problem solved. We had a long discussion in another thread in 2010 where I talked about making them. I sold my Midiizer long ago, but I think I have a cable or two around in a box somewhere.
 
I'd be interested in your cables. I read everything I could find about building these cables, including your discussions of pinouts. Then I bought all the parts from Mouser. I got out my soldering iron and created a piece of art I like to call DB15 With Solder Glob. I somehow managed to connect all the pins to each other without getting a single wire to stay put in the cups. Also, were you aware that solder splatter is really hot? Turns out, it is! LOL!
 
I'll dig them out eventually Chris. I've moved twice in as many years, so a lot of my stuff is in boxes. They were tedious to make even for me, and I've been soldering since about age of 12. But after they were done they worked like a charm. Now since all my syncing is controlled by one analog multitrack I have a much easier setup. The MTS-1000 would be overkill, or just not needed.

And yeah, solder splatter still gets the best of us. LOL
 
I was able to get some homebrew PW-5MD cables and they work great. FYI, the dsub jack screws are M2.5 (not 3mm as suggested above). I was able to get jackscrews with a M2.5 screw and a 4-40 socket from Digikey. The connectors now screw nicely into each other. Everything is nice and tidy and I was able to get sync lock on a pair of 238's after a night of tinkering.
 
Hello - I recognize that this is an old thread, but I'm hoping some of you are still following conversations on the Tascam MSR 16. I recently bought one and have two mysteries I'm trying to solve. I managed to find a PDF of the manual, so that was helpful. Anyway, I am routing from the Submaster Section of my Toft ATB-16 to a Patchbay then from there to in/out of the MSR-16. The ATB is like many analog boards of old. The submitter section has 8 channels out. Each input channel has selector switches in pairs for 1-8 "send" to the sub section. You pan L-R for odd even 1-8 in the sub. I also use the Apollo 16 silver interface. I'm testing various channels of the MSR-16 to see if things are going where you would expect and returning same. I'm routing a L-R output from iTunes into each of the Submaster channels and then pushing that out to the MSR 16. Note that I only have channels 1-8 connected on the MSR-16. However, when I send the signal, I get input at both 1 &9, 2&10, 3&11 - and so on. . .you get the picture. If the signal appears at Channel 1, it also appears on 9s. I can't for the life of me figure out why this is happening inside the MSR-16. Would someone be able to suggest what is going on here? Again, I am a total novice with this 16 track MSR-16.

My second problem is that I would like to integrate this tape machine into my studio environment. . . perhaps to track drums and bass through it and have it synched with my sequencer software - Digital Performer using SMPTE. I've found a piece of software called Horae that looks like it might work if I could figure out how the software works. It has LTC Generator and Read. So I'm thinking set SMPTE as the "clock" and slave Digital Performer. My question is? - 'Does anyone have SMPTE expertise with tape and digital worlds who might be able to offer some advie?'

Thank you in advance. Best. Steve
 
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