Does analog move more air. . . ?

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Okay so you dont know how any of my or other members posts and links are impacting anyones outlook on the topic at hand.

VP
ok poser.

You're such a waste of time.
You like to alienate even those that show a modicum of support for your position.

So ....... every single person on this board knows you're a poser with no actual knowledge or experience.
You NEVER produce the mythical results you claim to get from your non-existant experimentation.

A loser and a poser.
 
the bandwidth is limited but within the band width it is a continuous sine without the 'steps' you have in a digital signal.
Once again, there are no 'steps' in a digital signal. There are points and vectors. The illustration you are referring to is a dumbed down and very inaccurate way of explaining digital. Zooming in to a wave on your daw draws a picture like that because of the resolution of the representation of the waveform that the DAW designer decided to use. It's not a picture of what is actually being sent to the speakers.
 
Once again, there are no 'steps' in a digital signal. There are points and vectors. The illustration you are referring to is a dumbed down and very inaccurate way of explaining digital. Zooming in to a wave on your daw draws a picture like that because of the resolution of the representation of the waveform that the DAW designer decided to use. It's not a picture of what is actually being sent to the speakers.

I am curious about this, I am going to record high frequencies to my DAT machine and CD recorder and then look at them with an O-Scope.

VP
 
Think about it for a second. The 'steps' would be at a frequency of the sample frequency you are using. Since everything above half of that sample frequency is filtered out, those steps can not exist in the output of the converters.
 
Think about it for a second. The 'steps' would be at a frequency of the sample frequency you are using. Since everything above half of that sample frequency is filtered out, those steps can not exist in the output of the converters.

Well I am curious to see how a 15khz signal looks, how does the A/D and D/A converter deal with the missing waveform between the sample points?

VP
 
Think about it for a second. The 'steps' would be at a frequency of the sample frequency you are using. Since everything above half of that sample frequency is filtered out, those steps can not exist in the output of the converters.
say what you will ..... digital records things in steps .... very tiny steps but steps nonetheless.
An analog signal is a continuous sine wave .... a digital is an extrapolation of what a sinewave would be based on those sampling events.
And of course after the converters do their job there are no steps ...... but not because it filters out everything above the nyquist freq ...... but because that's the converters job ..... to produce an analog sine wave to drive amps and speakers.

i'm not claiming that the steps are present in the signal you listen to ..... I'm saying they are part of the original process of recording in digital and, IMO, have an effect on the final sound that gets recorded.

And I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else ..... I truly don't care even a tiny amount what any of ya'll believe .... hell, I don't care if ya'll exist.

I'm just saying that I hear a difference and I've learned to rely on my ears and I'll certainly take my ears over anything anyone has to say on the internet.

but you kinda mistated what I was saying or perhaps I didn't make it clear.
I'm talking about the initial recording process .. NOT the output once you're playing it on your speakers.
And there are definitely learned people that know their shit that agree with me about digital (16/44.1k) sound.
There are, of course, many learned people that agree with you.

I can find well written and convincing articles on both sides of the argument and I tend to be a measurement wonk myself.
If I didn't clearly and easily hear a difference I'd likely fall on the measurement side.

I well remember when solid state amps came out ...... the very same argument took place. 'Solid State amps that measure the same as tube amps have to sound the same' was the POV of the objectivists.

Nowadays we know that they mostly don't. There are things we've since learned to measure that help explain that now but at the time they weren't measuring those things. And even now they don't totally understand why amps sound the way they do in subtle areas. If they did ....... every amp would sound great.

But once again ..... stating an opinion ...... am completely indifferent as to whether you agree or not.

But I did NOT say there were steps in the output signal.
 
There are no missing waveform bits between the samples.

Again, anything 'missing' would be a harmonic (which a sine wave doesn't have) and have a frequency above half of the sample rate, so it wouldn't exist in the band limited signal.
 
There are no missing waveform bits between the samples.

Again, anything 'missing' would be a harmonic (which a sine wave doesn't have) and have a frequency above half of the sample rate, so it wouldn't exist in the band limited signal.

Because they are "Fabricated" by the A/D D/A converters. I wonder what they will look like, I am also going to record waveforms other than a pure sine wave. Too bad Digital recorders didnt have a Repro Head so I could watch both input and output signals on the scope.

VP
 
in the intial recording there is. And eliminating freqs over the nyquist freq is not what turns things below that into a continuous sine wave.
It eliminates them above that freq 'cause now it's gone. A 16/44.1 records 44.1k samples a second ....... period. Analog records in a continuous sine. This has nothing to do with filtering out freqs above 20k but whatever.
 
I remember the days when Luddites hated the use of tape recorders in electronic music (OK, not really, I wasn't alive in the '50s). Now the Luddites demand the use of tape recorders! :confused:

If only Stockhausen were still here to guide us . . .

I did listen me to some Messiaen last week, yes, a digital recording on CD and no, not a tape recorder as instrument, but a vastly older and better-sounding (live of course) mechanical form of making music:

Amazon.com: Messiaen: Livre Du Saint-Sacrement: Paul Jacobs, Messiaen, --: Music
 
Here is a great link for those who can appreciate it.
Analogue Warmth

VP

Have you actually read your "great link"?

Actually it IS great. It gives details of all the things wrong with analogue recording that contribute to the "analogue warmth" that some people like the sound of.

Nowhere does it say that analogue is more accurate than digital--because it's not. The warmth comes from a huge mix of fortuitous flaws. As I said about 20 pages ago, these flaws can produce an effect that is pleasing to the ear (just like grain in a black and white photo can look good) but none of that means analogue is more accurate.

By all means say that you like the sound of vinyl recordings. So do I. Say that you perceive a "certain something" in analogue that you miss in digital and that's hard to argue with too. Even say you like the tactile experience of recording with spinning reels and bouncing meters. Nobody here can argue with that.

But saying that analogue--even with a well maintained and expensive reel to reel--is a more accurate representation of the original signal is simply not true and weakens any argument.
 
I remember the days when Luddites hated the use of tape recorders in electronic music (OK, not really, I wasn't alive in the '50s). Now the Luddites demand the use of tape recorders! :confused:

If only Stockhausen were still here to guide us . . .

I did listen me to some Messiaen last week, yes, a digital recording on CD and no, not a tape recorder as instrument, but a vastly older and better-sounding (live of course) mechanical form of making music:

Amazon.com: Messiaen: Livre Du Saint-Sacrement: Paul Jacobs, Messiaen, --: Music
live is best!
 
Because they are "Fabricated" by the A/D D/A converters. I wonder what they will look like, I am also going to record waveforms other than a pure sine wave. Too bad Digital recorders didnt have a Repro Head so I could watch both input and output signals on the scope.

VP
If you run the signal to you mixer, you can send it to the digital recorder from one aux and send it to the other input on the scope from another aux.

The DA really doesn't reconstruct anything.

If you record a bass guitar hitting a low E and filter out everything above 50hz, you will end up with a sine wave at 41 Hz. That's how it works, you aren't constructing a sinewave, it's there the whole time.

Just like with the analog recorders, you are modulating the bias frequency by the frequency of the sound you are recording. When you filter out the bias frequency, you are left with just the sound.
 
Because they are "Fabricated" by the A/D D/A converters. I wonder what they will look like, I am also going to record waveforms other than a pure sine wave. Too bad Digital recorders didnt have a Repro Head so I could watch both input and output signals on the scope.

VP

Check out PCM4222 (there is an eval kit), it has a direct modulator output that runs 6 bit at ~6mHz--that is what ADCs are actually doing, they massively oversample the incoming signal and then use DSP to generate the output data rate. Anyway, you could scope the modulator output to see what it is doing.

Of course as you ask it for more output bandwidth you'll have more uncertainty, which is another way of saying the dynamic range becomes more limited. For example, at 6 bit/6mHz, it is capable of 30dB dynamic range across a 3mHz bandwidth if you chose to directly decode the modulator without filtration (note that it probably possesses or requires an analog filter to limit the bandwidth to substantially less than that, it's probably somewhere in the datasheet which I am too lazy to read at the moment. Let's just say 600kHz or so).

More usefully, it is capable of 107dB dynamic range across an 80kHz bandwidth, or 121dB across 20kHz.

There are many scientific references available on the web that do a *much* better job of explaining all of this than that dreadful wikipedia entry. You could start with a book though, like Nika Aldrich's:

Amazon.com: Digital Audio Explained: For The Audio Engineer (9781419600012): Nika Aldrich: Books
 
live is best!

Actually it is not; according to VP recordings sound better than live concerts, because the tape recorders have soul.

I tried to make a point that the lowest fundamental tone of that organ is 16Hz, which can be recorded accurately on a digital recording but not on tape. In either case it doesn't really matter because no playback system that anyone is likely to own can reproduce the sound of a 32' pipe, but that point fell on deaf but golden ears.

So we have learned that tape recordings sound better than real life and digital recordings sound worse, because VP said so.
 
So we have learned that tape recordings sound better than real life and digital recordings sound worse, because VP said so.


When I think of all the trouble I go to in live work to make things sound "the same but louder". What a waste of time--all I need is to run things through a tape recorder to make it better than live!
 
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