sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
Very cool! 
A cool new gig, and a question or two
- Thread starter Hammerstone
- Start date
Hammerstone
Out of style
So another update...after two weeks I'm finally back to transferring, and am almost halfway through the tapes now.
I've noticed having trouble with channel 5 and don't quite know what to do about it. It didn't worry me at first because not all the tracks were recorded on--there are randomly silent tracks throughout the tapes, sometimes more than half the tracks were empty--but after 5 tapes it kind of started bothering me and I tried recording something on track 5 and playing it back. It played back once but that was actually through the digital mixer. I get signal going into the machine according to the VU meters, but no signal on channel 5 on playback.
I have no idea what it'll take to fix it, am going to start browsing threads, but basically what this means is that even after it's fixed, I have to retransfer all the tapes AGAIN. Ugh...
I've noticed having trouble with channel 5 and don't quite know what to do about it. It didn't worry me at first because not all the tracks were recorded on--there are randomly silent tracks throughout the tapes, sometimes more than half the tracks were empty--but after 5 tapes it kind of started bothering me and I tried recording something on track 5 and playing it back. It played back once but that was actually through the digital mixer. I get signal going into the machine according to the VU meters, but no signal on channel 5 on playback.
I have no idea what it'll take to fix it, am going to start browsing threads, but basically what this means is that even after it's fixed, I have to retransfer all the tapes AGAIN. Ugh...
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
Ditto that...swap cards and see if the problem follows the card.
It sounds like it could be a relay acting up.
It sounds like it could be a relay acting up.
Hammerstone
Out of style
Thanks for being here guys, I don't think we quite appreciate you enough, but we can all try!
Here is a shot right off the computer screen, obviously channel 5 is different.
Thankfully Channel 5 is right on top and I didn't have to go digging to far to find it. Before I really got my hands dirty I decided to reseat the connections and see if that would do anything. Unfortunately it didn't.
The other thing I wondered is whether switching the connectors in the back (numbered 1 and 2) might get channel 5 on the tape to play through channel 13...didn't work that way.
Apologies for the phone pics, it's all I have at the moment, but I will say digital technology does occasionally have its advantages.
So now that I've tried all the easy things, I'll actually follow your advice and start unplugging wires and plugging them into different places. This scares me quite a bit... I'll update as soon as I've done this, as the only time I have for it is right now...in a few hours I'll have to pack up everything and put it back in my storage unit and get the room ready for class tomorrow.
Here is a shot right off the computer screen, obviously channel 5 is different.
Thankfully Channel 5 is right on top and I didn't have to go digging to far to find it. Before I really got my hands dirty I decided to reseat the connections and see if that would do anything. Unfortunately it didn't.
The other thing I wondered is whether switching the connectors in the back (numbered 1 and 2) might get channel 5 on the tape to play through channel 13...didn't work that way.
Apologies for the phone pics, it's all I have at the moment, but I will say digital technology does occasionally have its advantages.
So now that I've tried all the easy things, I'll actually follow your advice and start unplugging wires and plugging them into different places. This scares me quite a bit... I'll update as soon as I've done this, as the only time I have for it is right now...in a few hours I'll have to pack up everything and put it back in my storage unit and get the room ready for class tomorrow.
Hammerstone
Out of style
E(Yes...now that I think of it, there would be 1 is probably repro, 2 is sync, hmmm? Or vice versa)
(Oh, and I guess I didn't really reseat the card, just unplugged the connections...learning as I go)
ANYWAY.
I switched channel cards 5 and 6, and it is what you say, a relay acting up. Now channel 6 is silent.
So now...what next? Do I need to buy a new channel card? In the short term I will attempt to try reseating channel 5 card to see if that takes care of the problem in the short term, at least long enough to get the dozen tapes transferred. As it is, I can't get the tapes all transferred today anyway so it'll have to wait for 2017 before I can get back to transferring, but it would be nice to have all the troubleshooting done.
(Oh, and I guess I didn't really reseat the card, just unplugged the connections...learning as I go)
ANYWAY.
I switched channel cards 5 and 6, and it is what you say, a relay acting up. Now channel 6 is silent.
So now...what next? Do I need to buy a new channel card? In the short term I will attempt to try reseating channel 5 card to see if that takes care of the problem in the short term, at least long enough to get the dozen tapes transferred. As it is, I can't get the tapes all transferred today anyway so it'll have to wait for 2017 before I can get back to transferring, but it would be nice to have all the troubleshooting done.
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jpmorris
Tape Wolf
Replacing the card would work it but is overkill if it's just the output relays. Also bear in mind that the relays might start failing in other cards - IIRC this is a known problem with the MS16. A better bet would be to look into replace the relays, of which the MS16 apparently has two per channel, possibly chained in a binary tree to allow switching the output between input, sync and repro.
I'd have a look at this:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...ec-play-cards-312088/post3508758/#post3508758
...which shows the relay locations on the card and I think discusses compatible replacements.
Before you get stuck into it, it might also be worth checking that channel 5 can record, either by flipping the tape over or by swapping cards again, so that it's played back by a known good channel.
If it can't record either, there might be something deeper going wrong with the card.
EDIT: Ideally it would be nice to trace the signal, and see where it disappears using an oscilloscope, but that's probably going to be impossible without an extender card.
I'd have a look at this:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...ec-play-cards-312088/post3508758/#post3508758
...which shows the relay locations on the card and I think discusses compatible replacements.
Before you get stuck into it, it might also be worth checking that channel 5 can record, either by flipping the tape over or by swapping cards again, so that it's played back by a known good channel.
If it can't record either, there might be something deeper going wrong with the card.
EDIT: Ideally it would be nice to trace the signal, and see where it disappears using an oscilloscope, but that's probably going to be impossible without an extender card.
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Hammerstone
Out of style
Thanks, I have been glancing at that thread and it has been helpful, and maybe I should fight my nature and learn how to solder but replacing the card just seems easier...or at least just trying to reseat it and see what that does. Look, I even got the front panel off! Aren't you proud of me?
I am looking at the relays mentioned in that other thread and it does seem like a way to go. On the other hand, there's a guy selling MS-16 parts on the 'bay right now so I went ahead and sent him a message as well inquiring about channel cards.
Anyway as it turns out, my time is almost up here, everything is going back into the storage unit and I probably will not have time to play with this further until after New Year's, as I'll be working non-stop until then. I do have to say, it sucks having to break all this out of my storage unit every time that I need to do something, and working in the school recording studio only on weekends has its drawbacks, but I'm glad it's there. Just can't wait to have my own place again!
Thanks for all the help and suggestions, we'll see how this goes next year. See you then.
I am looking at the relays mentioned in that other thread and it does seem like a way to go. On the other hand, there's a guy selling MS-16 parts on the 'bay right now so I went ahead and sent him a message as well inquiring about channel cards.
Anyway as it turns out, my time is almost up here, everything is going back into the storage unit and I probably will not have time to play with this further until after New Year's, as I'll be working non-stop until then. I do have to say, it sucks having to break all this out of my storage unit every time that I need to do something, and working in the school recording studio only on weekends has its drawbacks, but I'm glad it's there. Just can't wait to have my own place again!
Thanks for all the help and suggestions, we'll see how this goes next year. See you then.
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Hammerstone
Out of style
Well. When putting everything back together I did notice something about the channel 5 card:
Not that it's a good picture, but that card seems to have quite a bit of corrosion/oxidation, especially around the relays (which is what you might be able to tell from the picture). All the others look quite clean by comparison, thankfully, but I have an idea now why channel 5 has been giving me problems. Well anyway...
Not that it's a good picture, but that card seems to have quite a bit of corrosion/oxidation, especially around the relays (which is what you might be able to tell from the picture). All the others look quite clean by comparison, thankfully, but I have an idea now why channel 5 has been giving me problems. Well anyway...
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
I would definitely start by replacing those relays.
Those amp cards are the same as used in the 58. I have a bunch of them. The relays do go bad.
Those amp cards are the same as used in the 58. I have a bunch of them. The relays do go bad.
Hammerstone
Out of style
Well it turns out the guy on the 'bay has no more channel cards anyway, so my only choice would be to switch out the relays. Unless I can pay you to send me a card with good relays, Sweetbeats? 
Na, I think I'm going to have to learn how to solder and unsolder...at least where my dad failed me, there's Youtube...
Na, I think I'm going to have to learn how to solder and unsolder...at least where my dad failed me, there's Youtube...
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
An important skill to learn. And none of my cards have new relays mounted. I have new relays on-hand to do this, but the 58 refurb project is a little ways down in the docket just yet.
Hammerstone
Out of style
It's been a while since I've been around, hi guys.
The situation right now is...the MS-16 has been in storage for a while. However, in the next month I should be getting the old girl moved into a new home and up and running! Then I'm going to pull out that channel card and have a closer look, though channel cards are back on the 'bay and I think I'd probably want to buy a couple spares anyway. (But handing the channel cards over to you to do all the relay work is still something I'm dreaming of, Sweetbeats!)
I've been forced to invest in some digital gear of my own for the furthering of my career in composing, so now is probably a good time to start transferring those tapes as well! I'm looking at different 8-channel USB interfaces, things like that. I'm looking at maybe Focusrite or MOTU, though suggestions are welcome!
Question: using two different 8-channel interfaces (like a Tascam and a Focusrite) to record all 16 channels at once isn't going to cause problems for me, is it?
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
You'll have to make sure your computer will support the multiple audio streams over the same or different protocols, consider how you are going to handle wordclock master issues and such. There's no quick answer to your "isn't going to cause problems for me is it?" question...
It will also depend possibly on your DAW software. I will wager it is more likely than not you won't have a problem, but it depends on your computer hardware, DAW software, and the individual interfaces you use.
I use a MOTU 8M and think its wonderful.
I also use Harrison Mixbus DAW software which is also wonderful and wouldn't have trouble handling multiple interface devices of the same or differing protocols (i.e. USB, Firewire, Thunderbolt, etc.)
[EDIT]
Rather than two separate interfaces, consider one interface that has a number of hardware analog inputs and outputs, and also some other digital I/O to which you can add your second set of analog inputs/outputs (such as ADAT Lightpipe). That way you have all the I/O you need but just one interface; one audio stream to/from the computer using the one interface device. I have a Presonus Digimax FS I can piggyback on any interface that has ADAT Lightpipe I/O if I need more than the 8 inputs on the 8M.
It will also depend possibly on your DAW software. I will wager it is more likely than not you won't have a problem, but it depends on your computer hardware, DAW software, and the individual interfaces you use.
I use a MOTU 8M and think its wonderful.
I also use Harrison Mixbus DAW software which is also wonderful and wouldn't have trouble handling multiple interface devices of the same or differing protocols (i.e. USB, Firewire, Thunderbolt, etc.)
[EDIT]
Rather than two separate interfaces, consider one interface that has a number of hardware analog inputs and outputs, and also some other digital I/O to which you can add your second set of analog inputs/outputs (such as ADAT Lightpipe). That way you have all the I/O you need but just one interface; one audio stream to/from the computer using the one interface device. I have a Presonus Digimax FS I can piggyback on any interface that has ADAT Lightpipe I/O if I need more than the 8 inputs on the 8M.
Hammerstone
Out of style
Thanks as ever for the help! The MOTU 8m is waaaaaaaaay out of my price range though I'm sure it would be nice. An 828 used is much more doable for me, though the Focusrite 18i20 would be a bit softer on my wallet. From looking at the back of both of these units, the ADAT Lightpipe would be the "optical in/out" option, correct? And then as you say, I can just daisychain two units together as long as they have that. The thing is, I can probably only afford to buy one, and I'll have to borrow the other from a friend and I don't know what he has yet.