A cool new gig, and a question or two

Hammerstone

Out of style
Well guys, I haven't been that active recently, I suppose that's my fault for not ever completing projects to be able to share them. Recently though, I've delved back into the tape world in a big way.

A friend of mine has a Tascam MS16 that he's been holding onto for a while but not using, and has worked out a deal for me with the owner: I transfer a dozen reels of tape he's had lying around for 20 years, and the MS16 (and also an Aries console...not Trident) are mine. Not a bad deal if I do say so, though I have no idea where I'd put it or how I'll be able to afford 1" tape.

Problem #1 though is the audio interfaces I'm using at my friend's house, but I don't know if you'll be able to help me with that.
Problem #2 is that most of the tapes are Ampex 456 :facepalm: :cursing:
I've never baked tapes before though I'm willing to give it a try if I have to...but I don't know if I need to! The boxes all have the Ampex logo along the bottom, the backs of three say Quantegy with the Opelika, AB address, but 6 reels are branded Ampex with the Redwood, CA address. I've been rereading the sticky shed thread, but so far haven't found the pertinent information so I thought I'd ask you experts to help me out: are the 456 reels with Redwood, CA on the back likely to be sticky, even though the Ampex logo is along the bottom?

empty-ampex-456-grand-master-1-4-tape-7-reel-empty-box-no-reel-no-tape-ceffbd43d5229f2bb5f940f1b.jpg
(not mine, but representative)
 
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WOAH that certainly is a deal, especially with the Trident console.

There's no way of knowing for sure until you thread up the tape (especially since the boxes might not match the exact reels), but I think generally the ones with the AL address should be good (I know I have a reel that I bought in 1996 that's fine). I think the cutoff year is 1994? I also have a friend who had some tape that I thought would be bad based on the box, and it was fine (CA address).

I got a batch of NOS Agfa PEM-469 awhile back, which all conventional wisdom says should have been sticky, and the whole batch of tape was fine. I do think there are some factors (such as storage, individual tape batches, etc) that influence the condition of the tape.
 
Oops, I said Trident, didn't I? It's an Aries actually. :spank: Still nice though, it's 24x8x16 and the two have been paired together since the beginning, I'm told. I actually know nothing about mixers...

The tape itself, I think has been living in garages for most of its life, but mostly in the Southwest, and recently now in Colorado.

I suppose I'd be ok putting on a reel just to see if it's sticky, but I'd rather be as informed as possible about it. Do we have a definite date on when Ampex switched their logo from the middle of the box to the bottom?
 
I was gonna say...if you were given a Trident (any of the models) I would be pissed having just spent a few $k on a used Trident 24 London. :D

Anyway...that's a great deal. Shit, I would transfer 50 reels. :)

Get a food dehydrator...if you can find one of the older Snackmaster Pro units, they are great, that's what I use.

I can do a couple of 2" reels, and for 1", you could probably fit 3 reels with the stock trays that come. I got some extra trays, but I would probably not do more than a couple 2" or three 1" or like four 1/2" or 1/4" tapes....that way they will get baked more evenly.
You put three 1" reels in...set the temp...let it go for like 1-2 housr, open and flip/rotate the stack of reels...let them go for another couple of hours...rotate again for a couple. That should do it. I think 4 hours is good enough, but 6 will be more than enough for 1" tape.
Then just let them cool at room temp...takes at least 6-8 hours to cool down. Overnight is better. Then when you put them on the deck, you can FF/RW...but if you can do like a library wind...which is like fast but slower than full FF/RW, it would be better, as sometimes you can get the tape slightly stuck to it's own windings in spots...but it's usually at the very edge, so it tends not to be a big deal, but you don't want to just let-r-rip at high speeds with freshly baked tape.

Not a a big deal...and if you never bake another tape, the Snackmaster IS a food dehydrator, so it won't go to waste. :)
 
Well, one little eccentricity about the tapes...the owner rewound them into their reels, they weren't stored tails out and weren't properly wound. I believe I need to take special care, right? Something about baking at lower temp for an hour or two, then have them wound properly, then the full bake?

I haven't looked at the MS16 manual yet (need to find it online first), but is there an option for "Library Wind?"

Actually, I was able to make out the stickers on the boxes, it seems three of the Redwood boxes' numbers are 95177 or 95162, so I'm guessing those are fine...the other three are too faded to make out, but I wonder...

And I suppose it won't hurt to bake the tapes even if it's not necessarily needed? Is that riskier than trying to play tapes (without baking) that might be sticky?

Oh, and there is a food dehydrator on standby...don't know exactly who made it, but it's there... :rolleyes:
 
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Great deal!!! I'd say score. :thumbs up:

As far a tape goes, EVERYTHING that came from redwood city is sticky. The Alabama stuff, I've found to be good.

Congrats on your deal!
:D
 
Oops, I said Trident, didn't I? It's an Aries actually. :spank: Still nice though, it's 24x8x16 and the two have been paired together since the beginning, I'm told. I actually know nothing about mixers...

The tape itself, I think has been living in garages for most of its life, but mostly in the Southwest, and recently now in Colorado.

I suppose I'd be ok putting on a reel just to see if it's sticky, but I'd rather be as informed as possible about it. Do we have a definite date on when Ampex switched their logo from the middle of the box to the bottom?

Ah ... don't know about Aries, but hey it's free and it's probably alright sounding!

I'm not sure about definitive dates (too bad Beck isn't around ... I'm sure some of the info is in the old threads). But in any case, I don't think there's a hard & fast date. If I remember correctly, 1974-1994 is generally considered bad but somewhere in my head I have the idea that '92-'94 may have been a transition.
 
That is very very cool...the whole deal. I'm with Miro...sign me up for 50 reel transfers. :D

You really won't know for sure if the reels are sticky until you thread them up. The safest thing to do is bake them. Those transitional tapes (Ampex branded but Alabama address) are a crap shoot because they brought some old stock from California that was packaged in those new style boxes but still branded Ampex, and other reels of tape were new formula.

And remember, even non-sticky-prone tapes can be sticky depending on the environment in which they were stored. Odds are they are probably fine, but why risk the MS16 integrity, and why risk the tape integrity? You are commissioned to archive the tapes. Do what you can to ensure playback is successful.

Regarding "library wind" on the MS16, I haven't looked at the manual to confirm but I'm pretty much positive there is a "spool" mode which is the same as library wind.

What is the problem with the audio interface ("problem #1" from your first post)?
 
Thanks for the thoughts, Sweetbeats. As long as it won't hurt to bake non-sticky tapes, then better safe than sorry is the plan of the day. I'll have to keep my eye out for a Snackmaster Pro just to be sure.

I did transfer 2 Quantegy 456 tapes which played fine (one more that I haven't gotten around to), and not having any digital equipment myself (besides a laptop with Audacity) I'm using equipment at my friend's house where the MS16 has been stored and probably will continue to be until I have space for it. My friend has a Macintosh laptop with Pro Tools, and a Digidesign 002 8-channel interface. I was transferring the tapes 8 tracks at a time, first pass tracks 1-8, second pass tracks 8-15 (and the original owner told me that track 16 is a bit spotty and he only ever used it for SMPTe), then synced them up after the fact. It wouldn't be that bad, except that Pro Tools keeps crashing and also I don't have enough control over the gain on the preamps--I've clipped a few times and there's basically nothing I can do about it.

Another friend of ours has lent us his Behringer X32 Rack interface, but I can't make heads nor tails of it at all, and have annoyed him enough with my questions already...he's not interested in helping me. Computer doesn't recognize the damn thing no matter what I do. I've tried reading the online manual (which basically tells you what it can do but not how to do it), and haven't found much in the way of tutorials or videos on what I have to do to set it up. Just a massive pain in the ass, one of the reasons I don't do digital (that much).

On the plus side though, I got in touch with one of my profs and have permission to use the college recording studio, which is where I've transferred all my tapes over the past two years, so I know that system well and shouldn't have any trouble. I do seem to remember something about it being a good idea to lock the transport before moving the deck, correct? I'm downloading the manual now to see if it'll tell me how to do that...

Ah ... don't know about Aries, but hey it's free and it's probably alright sounding!

I'm not sure about definitive dates (too bad Beck isn't around ... I'm sure some of the info is in the old threads). But in any case, I don't think there's a hard & fast date. If I remember correctly, 1974-1994 is generally considered bad but somewhere in my head I have the idea that '92-'94 may have been a transition.

I hate gambles like that :confused:

As far as the Aries board goes, I'm just happy it's 8 bus, as I don't see a whole lot of those around where I am.
 
For tape to digital transfers, I bought an Allen and Heath ice16. I couldnt be happier.
It just dumps 16 tracks straight into my computer. No preamps. No lining up tracks.
I just plug the tape outs into the A&H inputs and get uncolored conversion to digital.



It was a little pricey (for me) @ 1,000 bucks, but the pain is now gone, and I've transferred about 3 albums of 16 track tape into protools so far.

It's super easy to use and it's paid for itself.

It also works as a standalone digital recorder where you can record to a thumbdrive @16 bit, or a usb SSD @24 bit.

Also, it works as an interface for your daw, provided you have an analog console or preamps.

I know this sounds like a sales pitch, but I have no affiliation nor vested interest.

I was on the fence on buying one for a year. But actually being an owner now, I wonder why I waited so damn long.
:D
 
Thanks for the thoughts, Sweetbeats. As long as it won't hurt to bake non-sticky tapes, then better safe than sorry is the plan of the day. I'll have to keep my eye out for a Snackmaster Pro just to be sure.

I did transfer 2 Quantegy 456 tapes which played fine


If you want to avoid baking every tape...it doesn't take more than 30 seconds worth of play or FF/RW to notice if a tape has real SSS issues. I mean, it's not going to be just SSS somewhere in the middle but not at the ends of the reel...so play/wind for a bit, and if it looks clean...then do a full FF/RW, and see what kind of gunk, if any ends up on the guides/heads.

Like Corey said...sometimes non-typical SSS tapes will "appear" to have SSS, but it may just be storage fatigue, and a couple of passes cleans them up. That said, baking a non-SSS tape won't hurt it in most cases, but I agree...why bake a dozen tapes or so if in fact they are clean...so just check each reel for a bit, and if it seems to be good/clean, it probably is.

Only down side...every time you hit one with SSS...even 30 seconds worth on the deck will muck up the shit out of it...and then you have to stop and clean everything off real good. :D
 
If you want to avoid baking every tape...it doesn't take more than 30 seconds worth of play or FF/RW to notice if a tape has real SSS issues. I mean, it's not going to be just SSS somewhere in the middle but not at the ends of the reel...so play/wind for a bit, and if it looks clean...then do a full FF/RW, and see what kind of gunk, if any ends up on the guides/heads.

Like Corey said...sometimes non-typical SSS tapes will "appear" to have SSS, but it may just be storage fatigue, and a couple of passes cleans them up. That said, baking a non-SSS tape won't hurt it in most cases, but I agree...why bake a dozen tapes or so if in fact they are clean...so just check each reel for a bit, and if it seems to be good/clean, it probably is.

Only down side...every time you hit one with SSS...even 30 seconds worth on the deck will muck the shit out of it...and then you have to stop and clean everything off real good. :D

This really seems to be a case of damned if I do and damned if I don't. Thanks for confusing the issue. :thumbs up:

But really, it would be nice to not have to bake nine tapes...argh, the temptation...
 
the date code on the 456 located on the box gets you close. stuff dated mid 94 and earlier are suspect. Mid 94 and on good, with the caveat, as mentioned, there may have been some overlap of stock on hand.

I so far, have never encountered a 456 Ampex box with the lower label to be sticky, regardless of tape width too.
 
Great deal!!! I'd say score. :thumbs up:

As far a tape goes, EVERYTHING that came from redwood city is sticky. The Alabama stuff, I've found to be good.

Congrats on your deal!
:D
I realize my tape statements may have come off as a bit zealous and authoritative.

I don't mean to pass on misinformation.

My amended statement is: All redwood city tape 'THAT I HAVE ENCOUNTERED' is sticky.
This of course doesn't mean that every roll that came out of there is for a fact sticky. Just the ones i have encountered.
 
Thanks, I'll keep it mind. :)

Lots of good stuff here, but I can see that there is no real definitive answer. We'll just have to see how it goes...
 
The X32 usually comes stock with the USB2 card. This will allow you to x-fer 32 channels of audio. Basically you'd put the outputs of the MS-16 into the first 16 channels of the X-32.
Set up a template in the software you're using so that CH1 of the X32 goes to TR1 of your recording software (this will need you to understand the routing of the X32 and the routing of your software). If you're stuck, go on the Behringer X series forum....someone there will be able to help you get it configured.

Al
 
Thanks for the info, unfortunately I'm not nearly that far yet, still trying to get the computer to recognize the X32, but I'll check out the Behringer forums.
 
Well, after a summer busily working at my new job with no time for transferring, I did finally designate a weekend to get it done. Unfortunately I ran into so much trouble that I spent the entire weekend troubleshooting, and blaming everything on the digital board and new computer setup at school. However, for once, it was actually the analog gear that tripped me up. I don't know exactly how or why this happened, but it seems that without the DBX modules hooked up, the output signal is quite low, to the point where the digital board barely picked up anything and it took me forever to figure that out. As soon as I had the noise reduction units attached, no problem, everything working fine. :wtf: Only got one tape transferred before having to pack everything up and get the room back to its original setup, but I'm grateful I was able to figure things out and next weekend the job should be done!

...And the MS16 will be all miiiiiiiine... :guitar:

ms16a.png

Here's a phone shot of the beast in action.
 
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