Am I Seeing Double or What?

Well, it certainly didn't hurt the bidding. I've seen MSR-16's go for less. :eek:

Tim, I'm sure you're too ethical though ;)

Pity it was 120 volt...why did you guys go with that voltage? You get a far more effective boot off 230 volts :eek: :D
 
I had a previous post, that went something like this:...

(before I accidentally closed it!) :eek:

Eh,...

Analog value has been a bit on the rise, see:...

Tascam Porta One 4 Track Recorder, $100.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7326622860


Like new Tascam Porta Two Mini Studio Cassette Recorder, $155.23
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7324084400


TEAC A-3340S 4 CHANNEL REEL TO REEL DECK NICE, $380.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5776644086


TASCAM 234 SYNCASET STUDIO 4 CHANNEL CASSETTE DECK TEAC, $307.20
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7324800947

4 track tascam porta two mini studio, $127.50
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7323617421

TASCAM 246 4-TRACK 4-TRK PORTASTUDIO CASSETTE RECORDER, $406.50
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7323369130

TEAC TASCAM 80-8 REEL TO REEL MULTI-TRACK, $399.99
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7322536240

Tascam M-50 mixer, $365.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7321466185

WOW! TEAC/TASCAM 34B 4 TRACK MASTERING REEL TO REEL!!! $405.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5773675536

TASCAM PORTASTUDIO 246 4 TRACK ANALOG CASSETTE RECORDER, $355.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7319993049

TASCAM 234 SYNCASET 4 CHANNEL CASSETTE TAPE DECK TEAC, $154.82
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7320856048

TASCAM 644 MIDISTUDIO, $265.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7314537145

Vintage NIB Tascam 238S CASSETTE 8 Track multitrack, $445.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7313691680

Teac Tascam 22-4 4-Channel Reel to Reel *MINT*, $399.95
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5766131376

...

I've seen 234's bid to $375, 388's to $775, a Porta Two plus accessoies $375!

And, among the analog & tape feeding frenzy on Ebay, I'm still able to get very favorable deals on nice used gear! Ebay bids high & low, depending on the item, condition, and time of day at the close of bid. I'm getting GREAT deals, and YMMV!

In general, I'm glad to see analog value a bit on the rise,... not that I've ever sold anything! :eek: :confused: ;)
 
arjoll said:
Pity it was 120 volt...why did you guys go with that voltage? You get a far more effective boot off 230 volts :eek: :D

I don’t know -- might be we had enough heat already.;) I’m just thankful Edison didn’t get his way and we’re not running DC. :D
 
That MSR-16S looks quite nice too. I'd like to get hold of the dbx version one day!

In a way it would be a pity if the prices start going up (harder to enter) but on the other hand it would be a good thing if demand for analogue was driving prices up - if prices were higher then there would be more justification for manufactuers to start producing machines again.

.....and Reel would be able to realise a small fortune if he ever sold any of his gear :D
 
SteveMac said:
Yes it does look nice. Isn't Dolby S better than DBX?
Its a subjective thing, there seem to be arguements both ways.

The reason I'd look at dbx is that I engineered some stuff for a friend in '93 on an MSR16 with dbx at Radio One, Dunedin. I was very pleased with sound of the machine (but not with the final mix) and would like to pick up an MSR-16 primarily to grab the tapes back and re-do the mix.

Cya
Andrew
 
SteveMac said:
Yes it does look nice. Isn't Dolby S better than DBX?

Noise reduction types are one of those hot topics (what isn’t, eh?) :D

Technically dbx gives a better signal to noise ratio on a given machine – 108 dB vs. 92 dB for Dolby S on the MSR-16. Only your dog can hear the difference though. Few mortals I know would describe a 90+ S/N ratio as anything other than pin-drop quiet.

Some people say they can hear dbx working (switching on and off). In my experience that means there’s a calibration issue or user error (meters buried, etc). I’ve used dbx for 20 years without those issues. My TSR-8 w/dbx sounds sweet.

Dolby SR probably gets the most votes as Master and Commander of noise reduction. My list in order of preference for Dolby goes like this:

SR
S
C
A
B

A lot of people will put A above C, but C is more closely related to SR and S, even though it’s not technically a “Pro level” system. C has anti-saturation circuitry (like S & SR) that controls high-frequency distortion, giving it a slight edge over A for my purposes, but it’s a close call and I would use either.

C was underrated from its inception because it was designed for the consumer cassette market. Then Fostex came along and showed how effective it could be on narrow format muli-track (E-16, etc). It does a fine job.

Dolby S is basically a super duper improved system based on C and sounds great. :)

-Tim
 
Last edited:
WOW! You guys really outdid yourselves with all the great and sometimes technical info.

As long as we're on the subject of VOLTAGE ..... Let's say I take my TEAC 3440 (now 2 :D ), TASCAM 388 and mixers, which were bought in North America and obviously work at a different voltage than most of Europe, and try to operate them in the United Kingdom ... I figure you'd need a Voltage Transformer, one which can handle even multiple connections of gear (with the addition of an outlet surge strip to handle multiple connections). I figure 1000 watt transformer should suffice with room to spare, like any of the higher rated ones here: http://www.voltageconverters.com/voltage_converters.html

Ok, that's all great and dandy but none of these transformers actually do anything about changing the Cycles from 60 Hz to 50 Hz. Some say that this difference in cycles may cause the motors in the decks to operate slightly slower when used on 50 Hz foreign electricity and that fuses on the decks may have probs and also mixers may have "issues". On the other hand, I've also been told that these operate on AC and not DC and thus the "cycle" problem won't influence these in any way. I guess what I'm confused about is the whole 50/60 Hz CYCLES issue as it directly relates to the gear I have. Can anyone explain and is there any concern over using this type of gear with just a voltage transformer ?

Thank you!

Daniel
 
cjacek said:
As long as we're on the subject of VOLTAGE ..... Let's say I take my TEAC 3440 (now 2 :D ), TASCAM 388 and mixers, which were bought in North America and obviously work at a different voltage than most of Europe, and try to operate them in the United Kingdom ... I figure you'd need a Voltage Transformer, one which can handle even multiple connections of gear (with the addition of an outlet surge strip to handle multiple connections). I figure 1000 watt transformer should suffice with room to spare, like any of the higher rated ones here: http://www.voltageconverters.com/voltage_converters.html
That's correct. You buy an auto-transformer to drop the voltage down - often the rating is in VA, just multiply this by 0.7 to convert to watts.

Might be easiest to grab one when you go over - they're readily available in most countries with 'real' voltages :) because we're used to North Americans coming over and not realising that not everyone is the same as them :D . You'll know you'll get the right plug then - although if you get one with an IEC inlet then you'll be ok. They are also very heavy in the rating you're talking about. Heavy = expensive freight!

cjacek said:
Ok, that's all great and dandy but none of these transformers actually do anything about changing the Cycles from 60 Hz to 50 Hz. Some say that this difference in cycles may cause the motors in the decks to operate slightly slower when used on 50 Hz foreign electricity and that fuses on the decks may have probs and also mixers may have "issues". On the other hand, I've also been told that these operate on AC and not DC and thus the "cycle" problem won't influence these in any way. I guess what I'm confused about is the whole 50/60 Hz CYCLES issue as it directly relates to the gear I have. Can anyone explain and is there any concern over using this type of gear with just a voltage transformer ?
It depends on the gear. Many older units I've seen (including my Akai and Ferrograph) use the mains frequency to control the speed of the motor. Running at a different frequency means a different speed. In the case of your machine it would pay to research this - often there could be a two-step (as in the Akai GXC46D cassette deck) or different size pully if its belt driven. If its direct drive look for a frequency control somewhere in the drive circuitry (my GX265D). In the worst case (probably unlikely in your Teacs but the case with my Ferrograph) there may have been a different motor used for each frequency.

If you do get stuck, then one way around it - unfortunately an expensive one - would be to use an inverter. This converts DC to AC - the idea being that you'd charge a 12 volt car battery from 230v/50Hz and then use an inverter connected to the battery to generate 120v/60Hz. Not an ideal solution, and if you run the recorder a lot you'd need a huge battery, huge charger or both.

The other possibility - and this is probably the case with the cassette-based Portastudios and certainly anything that uses a DC adapter or batteries - is that the motor runs on DC and that the DC voltage determines it speed. In this case frequency should not be a problem.

Now to the mixers. Any mixer I've seen uses a linear power supply to generate a range of DC voltages to power the rest of the system. There should be no problems running these on the 120v/50Hz you'd get out of a step-down autotransformer.

One thing that you'll need to get used to listening for is the 50Hz (induction) or 100Hz (poor smoothing) hums that we're all used to in 50Hz land. It will probably be more obvious, in the same way that 60Hz/120Hz sounds so odd to me!

Hope this helps!

Cya
Andrew
 
Beck said:
Noise reduction types are one of those hot topics (what isn’t, eh?) :D

Technically dbx gives a better signal to noise ratio on a given machine – 108 dB vs. 92 dB for Dolby S on the MSR-16. Only your dog can hear the difference though. Few mortals I know would describe a 90+ S/N ratio as anything other than pin-drop quiet.

Some people say they can hear dbx working (switching on and off). In my experience that means there’s a calibration issue or user error (meters buried, etc). I’ve used dbx for 20 years without those issues. My TSR-8 w/dbx sounds sweet.

Dolby SR probably gets the most votes as Master and Commander of noise reduction. My list in order of preference for Dolby goes like this:

SR
S
C
A
B

A lot of people will put A above C, but C is more closely related to SR and S, even though it’s not technically a “Pro level” system. C has anti-saturation circuitry (like S & SR) that controls high-frequency distortion, giving it a slight edge over A for my purposes, but it’s a close call and I would use either.

C was underrated from its inception because it was designed for the consumer cassette market. Then Fostex came along and showed how effective it could be on narrow format muli-track (E-16, etc). It does a fine job.

Dolby S is basically a super duper improved system based on C and sounds great. :)

-Tim

Properly calibrated (as in done now) there should be no difference between the two systems. When the calibration drifts (as in it has not been calibrated in years) then I prefer Dolby C over DBX.

Now, where the DBX AND Dolby C systems get a bad rep is in the levels that people try to record at. Both of these systems will not tolerate the "analog tape compression" technique that is so sought after. If you try to "hit the red" with either of these NR systems on, then all the bad artifacts come out.
With NR, keep those meters at or below 0db. Use a peak limiter to keep them there. You will get better recordings because each time you peak into the red, the artifacts pile on and you have crazy, funny sounds that emerge in the recording. The famous DBX "pumping & breathing" is one of these artifacts of a properly calibrated system being crucified by adding "a bit of that good ol' tape compression"

Forget tape compression (which is an effect that pro machines with no NR and crazy high headroom in the electronics can pull off. There are not too many non-pro decks that can be calibrated to +9 but all pro machines go even higher than this)and use the NR within it's range and all will be well.

(Last hint: A well aligned, well maintained 2" pro machine has no "tape compression" if used the way the designers intended it to be used,at 0db and below. Analog "warmth" and "tape compression" are two totally different things that get bundled together by people who really don't understand at all what is going on with either)
 
What would one of those old home components be typed as?

For instance I have a TEAC AN-180 Dolby NR unit. Do
you know what type of Dolby that is? It doesn't say in the manual.

Is it a big thing to calibrate those DBX units?
 
TEAC AN-180 is Dolby B. As a rule, if it doesn’t say then it will be B. Before C came along, consumer Dolby was widely referred to simply as "Dolby NR" or "the Dolby system" without a letter designation. However, some are marked B.

dbx is easy to calibrate, it just needs to be done. It is often neglected.

The on-line Dolby Technical Library is an excellent resource for more info on Dolby and other recording stuff as well.

http://www.dolby.com/resources/tech_library/index.cfm

-Tim
 
arjoll said:
That's correct. You buy an auto-transformer to drop the voltage down - often the rating is in VA, just multiply this by 0.7 to convert to watts.

Might be easiest to grab one when you go over - they're readily available in most countries with 'real' voltages :) because we're used to North Americans coming over and not realising that not everyone is the same as them :D . You'll know you'll get the right plug then - although if you get one with an IEC inlet then you'll be ok. They are also very heavy in the rating you're talking about. Heavy = expensive freight!


It depends on the gear. Many older units I've seen (including my Akai and Ferrograph) use the mains frequency to control the speed of the motor. Running at a different frequency means a different speed. In the case of your machine it would pay to research this - often there could be a two-step (as in the Akai GXC46D cassette deck) or different size pully if its belt driven. If its direct drive look for a frequency control somewhere in the drive circuitry (my GX265D). In the worst case (probably unlikely in your Teacs but the case with my Ferrograph) there may have been a different motor used for each frequency.

If you do get stuck, then one way around it - unfortunately an expensive one - would be to use an inverter. This converts DC to AC - the idea being that you'd charge a 12 volt car battery from 230v/50Hz and then use an inverter connected to the battery to generate 120v/60Hz. Not an ideal solution, and if you run the recorder a lot you'd need a huge battery, huge charger or both.

The other possibility - and this is probably the case with the cassette-based Portastudios and certainly anything that uses a DC adapter or batteries - is that the motor runs on DC and that the DC voltage determines it speed. In this case frequency should not be a problem.

Now to the mixers. Any mixer I've seen uses a linear power supply to generate a range of DC voltages to power the rest of the system. There should be no problems running these on the 120v/50Hz you'd get out of a step-down autotransformer.

One thing that you'll need to get used to listening for is the 50Hz (induction) or 100Hz (poor smoothing) hums that we're all used to in 50Hz land. It will probably be more obvious, in the same way that 60Hz/120Hz sounds so odd to me!

Hope this helps!

Cya
Andrew

Thanks for the thorough explanation. WOW! :eek:

I spoke to the TASCAM guy in California, "Jimmy", and he says the 3440 and TASCAM 388 will have no "cycle" issues as the capstan motors are DC, whatever that means :confused: Basically he reassured me that all I need is a transformer and I'm good to go.

Anyway, thanks for the great info Andrew!

~Daniel
 
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