16 track reel to reels..

Spider

New member
hi all , my first time in the analogue world , feel kinda lost ... just kidding..
what im wondering is , how much am i looking at if i wanted to use a 16 track reel to reel .. are these common?? and if so how much roughly do they cost?? Aus. if possible..
I would like to be able to record 16 tracks at once , also i would like the recorder to have 16 direct outs so i can mix down to digital (pc) or even dat ....(i know , its still digital) any help here would be much appreciated , cheers all...
spider
ps .. i would also be interested in a meterbridge for it , r these available, also any good secondhand ones out there ??? i think tascam make a decent 16 track dont they ..?? cheers
 
Spider said:
hi all , my first time in the analogue world , feel kinda lost ... just kidding..
what im wondering is , how much am i looking at if i wanted to use a 16 track reel to reel .. are these common?? and if so how much roughly do they cost?? Aus. if possible..
I would like to be able to record 16 tracks at once , also i would like the recorder to have 16 direct outs so i can mix down to digital (pc) or even dat ....(i know , its still digital) any help here would be much appreciated , cheers all...
spider
ps .. i would also be interested in a meterbridge for it , r these available, also any good secondhand ones out there ??? i think tascam make a decent 16 track dont they ..?? cheers

Well, a used Tascam or Fostex machine is going to run you from $1,000 to $2,000 used; they no longer make them, so that is one issue...
A Reel of 1/2" Tape goes for anywhere from $35 to $50 depending upon where you buy it.

I see them for sale all the time on E-bay.
Part of the problem, is readily available parts and support for the Semi-Pro formats (which is what these machines are).
I would encourage you to look into the Tascam DA-38's.
My original intent was to go with a 2" Analog machine-but I could not Justify spending $130 for a reel of tape.
Anything less than a 2" machine, and you'll be dealing with Noise Reduction (dbx SUCKS!) and tape hiss.

That's my take on this.

Tim
 
It's a shame they stopped making the fostex GS24 - it was a great machine for the price - good noise reduction, great transport etc. This should make me an expert member!!
 
hey thanks for that tim , and happy aniversary john..keep up the good work..
Sorry if this sounds a little dumb, but i really have never used tape.. Reels , can they be recorded over, cos at first i will be experimenting a lot with it , and also if it is possible to tape over things is there a lot of quality loss.. So would u say its a good investment?? or are there any newer forms of recordable medium , something along the same line??
cheers all
spider
 
Spider said:
hey thanks for that tim , and happy aniversary john..keep up the good work..
Sorry if this sounds a little dumb, but i really have never used tape.. Reels , can they be recorded over, cos at first i will be experimenting a lot with it , and also if it is possible to tape over things is there a lot of quality loss.. So would u say its a good investment?? or are there any newer forms of recordable medium , something along the same line??
cheers all
spider

Hi Spider,

I personally LOVE Analog, BUT I hate Tape hiss. In any of these types of Formats, you're going to be fighting the hiss.
I transferred some tapes from 1992 for a friend last night into digital.
The singer on the tapes killed himself 2 years ago, and my friend wanted to be able to make copies-so I transferred it to digital, so that we would only have to run the analog tape 1 time.

It was HISS CITY man!! Hahaha
I've already gotten used to the no hiss factor of my Digital machines.

Okay, what exactly is your budget for this?
You have to have a ball park figure that you're looking to spend, otherwise we can't really help you too much, without being very general with our answers.

I still say go Digital. If you want tape-get either a Tascam or an Alesis machine. I chose Tascam simply for the fact that I Trust Tascam machines-while I would NEVER trust anything that says Alesis on it.
I had too many problems with their effect units during the late 80's and early 90's to be willing to risk wasting the money on their machines.

Tim
 
There is hiss on every great recording ever made. I bought a used Tascam 85-16B off E Bay for 2800. it is a 1 inch format. Set up for 499 tape there is no need for noise reduction. , and the sound quality will blow away any form of digital in existance.
 
Nostalgia

Before returning to this country,I had an Otari MX5050 MkIII 1/2" 8 track.I used to mail order Ampex 456 from Manny's NYC for like $35 per 10" reel.It sounded great but with the shipping and duty I would've had to pay for it to make the trip with me,it wasn't cost effective.Now I have a VS-880EX,and although I still love the analog sound I gotta admit I've gotten really used to the speed and flexibility of hard disk recording.I still think that that model Otari is probably the best small format analog multitrack ever made; at 15ips the unweighted S/N was 66db w/o noise reduction!(I never used any)and the frequency response went out to 26khz (again at 15ips).Pretty good for 1/2" tape!
 
well im already recording onto digital , using a pc based setup.. but i visited a studio recently for some work experience and i was quite impressed with the 16 track tascam he was using. Plus i like the idea of being able to run everything back out (still seperate Chans.) the recorder and through my desk so i can mix down to digital..is this a bad way of doing it ?? but basically i was hoping to be able to pick something up around the 2000 dollars AUS. , is that about $1000 US , not sure.. Am i dreamming ,
i looked on ebay , theres a few things there but they just look so old .. am i too accustomed to the flash looks of digital rcording?? i hope not cos i liked the sound , warmth and feel of the analogue setup i saw ... but it also didnt look too old either .. cheers all
spider
 
Spider said:
well im already recording onto digital , using a pc based setup.. but i visited a studio recently for some work experience and i was quite impressed with the 16 track tascam he was using. Plus i like the idea of being able to run everything back out (still seperate Chans.) the recorder and through my desk so i can mix down to digital..is this a bad way of doing it ?? but basically i was hoping to be able to pick something up around the 2000 dollars AUS. , is that about $1000 US , not sure.. Am i dreamming ,
i looked on ebay , theres a few things there but they just look so old .. am i too accustomed to the flash looks of digital rcording?? i hope not cos i liked the sound , warmth and feel of the analogue setup i saw ... but it also didnt look too old either .. cheers all
spider

Well Spider,
You have to realize that it's been awhile since Small format Open Reel Multitracks were in vogue. I think that as soon as the news that Alesis had designed the ADAT was released, all the manufacturer's started scrambling to get into the digital field.
I'm not sure when Fostex quit making 16 tracks, I think their last model might have been something like the E-16, which was 16 tracks on 1/2" tape.
Tascam probably quit making the MSR series in the early 90's, so you're looking at a machine that's at least 5 to 7 years old.
My main to problems with the small format units are noise/hiss, and the availablitiy of parts.
Have you thought about getting an 8-track?
I use an analog 8-track for somethings, and then just copy it into digital-I run the 8-track into my mixer, through Limiters-and put the maximum volume onto digital to help give me the levels that I want.
The only reason that I've even hung onto my Analog machine-is that I have $500 into the machine, and I know i can't get that back out of it.
I bought a Fostex A-8 that had ZERO hours on the headblock!
I got it from a friend; and He paid more for the Headblock and Installation of it, than I paid him for the Machine.


My first experience with "real" multitrack was on a Fostex 16 track at a local studio in 1986; before that we were ping ponging everything between a 1970-something Sansui 2 track reel to reel, and a cassette deck, then eventually got a Yamaha MT44 (or something like that?) it was a rackmount unit-and you had to have this "sensor" tape to put on the back of the cassette to make it read all 4 tracks.

Tim
 
So is it the general opinion that Tascam reel to reels are the best? Or Otari? Or are they both equally great? And are these the units that pro studios use...cause I know a lot of recording studios still use reel to reel (for example, Steve Albini does), but what brand do they use? One of the above? According to Otari's website, from what it looks like, Otari still makes a 24 track recorder...1" or 2", can't remember. Anyone know where to get one? I bet they cost an arm and a leg. Then there's the matter of mixers...it's kinda pointless to have 24 tracks with a 4 or 8 buss console...who makes really good 16 and 24 buss mixers? I'm not looking to buy anytime soon (maybe even never), but getting a general idea is what I'm after.
 
El Barto said:
So is it the general opinion that Tascam reel to reels are the best? Or Otari? Or are they both equally great? And are these the units that pro studios use...cause I know a lot of recording studios still use reel to reel (for example, Steve Albini does), but what brand do they use? One of the above? According to Otari's website, from what it looks like, Otari still makes a 24 track recorder...1" or 2", can't remember. Anyone know where to get one? I bet they cost an arm and a leg. Then there's the matter of mixers...it's kinda pointless to have 24 tracks with a 4 or 8 buss console...who makes really good 16 and 24 buss mixers? I'm not looking to buy anytime soon (maybe even never), but getting a general idea is what I'm after.

Well, what you would use is called an "Inline" mixer.
In each Channel-strip is what is called "Mix B", It's a submixer with a Volume, Pan, usually 2 bands of EQ, and what's called a "flip".
Push the Flip, and it routes the Tape into MIX A-which is the rest of The Fader

Each Channel goes on it's own Track.
So, fr 24 Tracks-you would have a 24 Channel INLINE Mixer-whixh would really by 48 Stereo Channels for Mixdown (Since there is Mix A and Mix B in each Channel).

Normally the Bussing systems in this situation would be for Stereo Effects mixes-or at least that has been my experience; heck, even on a 16x4, I use the 4 busses for Stereo sends to effect units....

Comparing an Otari 2" 24 track to a Tascam machine is Apples and Oranges.
Tascam is affordable for Home use-Otari is a pro machine all the way, and the only people that I've ever known to have had them got 8-Track 1/2" Machines purely out of LUCK!
Tascam is generally considered a better machine than the Fostex machines. Of course here locally everyone refers to Tascam as Ta-SCAM, but I don't feel that way...
I've been satisfied with everything so far.
The only problem that I ever had, was a DA-302 Sual Well DAT unit-that had a bad chip from the Start; Tascam just sent me a new machine.

Tim
 
So I need to look for an inline mixer then? I know I've seen quite a few before...does Mackie have any inline mixers? And if I'm going to build a pro/semi-pro studio, Otari would be the way to go then, eh?
 
Tascam is very user friendly and parts are avail at good prices. Otari can be a horror show I hear. I read where a guy needed a head for his 2 inch Otari and after waiting almost a year and paying 4000 dollars the sent the wrong head.The tascam MSR 16 belongs in a home studio.The 1 inch 85-16B and ATR-60/16 are quite real.I disassembled mine when picking it up. The rack mounted power supply alone weighed 90 lbs. It is definetly a rugged machine.
 
Paulie said:
Tascam is very user friendly and parts are avail at good prices. Otari can be a horror show I hear. I read where a guy needed a head for his 2 inch Otari and after waiting almost a year and paying 4000 dollars the sent the wrong head.The tascam MSR 16 belongs in a home studio.The 1 inch 85-16B and ATR-60/16 are quite real.I disassembled mine when picking it up. The rack mounted power supply alone weighed 90 lbs. It is definetly a rugged machine.

But you're talking about a totally different Animal!
I mean, what did the ATR go for new?
$20K or so?
I remember seeing Tascam's 1" 16" track (With the Reels on the Top in a rolling rack) that went for $20 Grand, versus a Unit that went for a few thousand-BIG difference...

Tim
 
wellfrom what im hearing , tascam maybe the way to go .. although hearing things like the thing about the head costing so much , i know that was ontari , but is tascam the same with parts?? maybe my digital setup is the better way to go , its just it costs me nothing in consumables and it rarely breaks down ... maybe im getting out of analogue too early , just hearing you guys talk about it , it just seems that digital maybe taking over ... anyway , thanks everyone for your help , youve really enlightened things about analogue.. cheers all..
spider
 
Danger will rogers! Danger!

My pop bought a 16 track mci 2 inch tape mahing for 5000$ 20 years ago... he spent another few grand to get MOSt, not all, of the tracks working. Parts and drugged up electronic/music engineer guy made another few grand.
Machine was always breaking and needing rare parts.
Be ready for that in an old deck.
 
regebro said:
Tim Brown said:
dbx SUCKS!

dbx noise reduction RULES!!!
[/B]

Dbx makes tapes muddy and Lifeless man.
all those Noise reductions suck.
If given the option of DBX NR or no NR, I'll take no NR.
I'd rather Compres and Gate the hell out of everything, and drive the tracks into distortion with a limiter in place, than deal with dbx NR. If

I'd rather use Dolby B than dbx!
and I definitely prefer Dolby C over dbx. I have no problem with Dolby C, it didn't make my vocals mucky sounding, and it didn't "mud up" my drum tracks.

No thanks, Give me Digital any day of the week!

It's like old drums vs. new drums.
I'm with Neil Peart, who said,"....I'll take a new drum over an old one every time, they're made better than the old ones...."

(Even though I have always been an advocate of 2" Analog, I am quickly learning to "work Digital" in my favor"; It's just a matter of using all the tools to get the Maximum signal on tape, and making sure you have what you want, before you ever print it.
Then you'll have a killer sound to play around with in the mix.

Tim
 
now that were talking about dbx...

I have dbx units for my 1/2 in tascam 38 and NEVER considered NOT using them... Until I tried it and got the BEST sound I had achieved yet.
wanna buy some dbx units?
 
I used to think the smaller analogs were too noisy
as well, but changed my mind after using a pro mic.
I went to a Neuman M147 large condensor, and have
learned to love it with my 1/4" eight track reel
to reel(Fostex A-Series Model 80). It is clean now.
(I'm doing a commercial CD now in that format).
I would almost think it was digital at times. So the
size of your unit isn't totally the problem. I know
the larger reels are faster and cleaner, but try a
killer mic on any smaller machine, and you will drop
your jaw in surprise. I have also picked up great
ideas from folks on this site about getting a silky
guitar sound too. I'm gaining on my Db problem
(Dumb boy-ha).

strumming ,
Chuck
 
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