Tascam 38 vs. TSR-8... should it be like this?

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bloomboy

New member
As of four days ago, my tascam 38 was in the shop for an unknown length of time, and I had an album to finish within the month. I had decided not to buy any more tape decks from ebay after a couple of complete disasters, but I saw a really legitimate looking TSR-8 with a new reel of tape and spare head assembly (including spare heads) for $450, and I was pretty desperate, so I bought it. Luckily, it arrived in absolutely perfect condition after shipping, and what's more, it's obviously been immaculately cared for. Not a spot of dust or blemish on it, transport is smooth as silk- a rare find for ebay to say the least.

Coincidentally, the 38 ended up only having a minor problem, and I got it back today. I decided to do a little bit of comparison, and I was totally shocked at the results. I recorded an accoustic guitar through a large diaphragm condenser to both the 38 and the TSR-8 (DBX off) on RMG SM911, and faded between the two after making sure they were at the same volume. There's no doubt about it- the TSR-8 sounds better, and by more than a little. The first thing I noticed was that the high end was a little smoother and significantly clearer, but as I listened more carefully it became evident that the TSR-8 had a... depth? I guess that the 38 completely lacked.

So my question, for anyone who has experience with both machines: (beck?)

Is it supposed to be like this? My 38 is maybe a decade older than my TSR-8, and doesn't seem to have been maintained very carefully before I got it, but then on the other hand I have had a lot of work done on it (heads recently lapped, solder joints all checked, etc.) and I'm meticulous about caring for and cleaning it, so it's currently in great shape. Are the electronics in the TSR-8 just better than those in the 38? Or is there something else going on here?

Also, I think I've officially cought the bug. When I started visiting this forum a year ago I had just bought a single 4-track with the intention of using it as a front-end for a DAW, and now I've got an all analog setup including two 1/2" 8-tracks, a 1/4" 4-track, and a 1/4" 2 track. :p
 
bloomboy said:
Also, I think I've officially cought the bug. When I started visiting this forum a year ago I had just bought a single 4-track with the intention of using it as a front-end for a DAW, and now I've got an all analog setup including two 1/2" 8-tracks, a 1/4" 4-track, and a 1/4" 2 track. :p
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Yes, I think you have. ;)

Interesting question. I'd like to hear this comparison myself now.
 
I don't own a TSR8 but I do have a 38 and an MS-16 which both share the same track width and speed and there is a definite difference in the sound quality being better on the MS-16 which has newer channel amp designs with a more robust power supply to feed them and just as people will tell you about "salon" quality pre-amps being better then bargain basement ones, so too are their sound quality differences in the electronics of different tape recorders so, I'm sure that the ones in the TSR8 would be of a smarter design then their predecessors, like the 38.

Cheers! :)
 
This is interesting to me because the two differences you named, the smoother high end and more depth, are the exact problems I've been been trying to solve on my 38! I find the highs on my 38 too harsh too!
 
Huh. So maybe it is just the way they're built. Also, the tsr-8 seems to distort in a much different and more pleasing way than the 38. I like to record heavy drums loud enough that there's a little distortion sometimes (beyond just saturating the tape) and the tsr-8 seems to distort everything much more evenly and 'fully' than the 38, which has a tendency to make the lows and highs crunchy without doing much to the mids until you really push it.

Incedentally, since we've got so many threads about bad ebay sellers, I would just like to note that I bought this from "pdlxtech" on ebay. (Is that someone here, by any chance?) so add this guy to your list of good sellers. Knows a thing or two about packaging, too.
 
Hi_Flyer said:
damnit. i just bought a 38. are you saying I need to buy a TSR-8 too?
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No! :D There's nothing determined about this. Sounds of tape decks vary. I've never heard of any other comparison of the two.
 
Hi_Flyer said:
damnit. i just bought a 38. are you saying I need to buy a TSR-8 too?
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Of course not!
I think sound is mostly determined by the preamplification, mics, instruments...
 
I chose the TSR-8 over the 38 and the Otari MX5050/8 several years ago because it won my sound (and features) test. The TSR-8 is a different animal – the last generation TASCAM with advanced features not even found on many older so-called “Pro” formats. The heads are the same as the 38, but the circuitry and transport control are entirely different. One of the first things I noticed about the TSR-8 was that the signal-to-noise ratio was better in a side-by-side with the 38, without dbx.

However, I don’t remember the 38 being that bad. I always liked it before the TSR-8 came out. So while I would say the TSR-8 is subjectively a bit brighter, fuller, etc. you could also have a situation where the 38 under test is just older and therefore not performing up to spec.

IMO, a 38 isn’t going to sound as good as a TSR-8, but it could be closer depending on the condition of the 38.

:)
 
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schematic needed

OK So someone please send me the schematic of the tsr8 channel card. I want to make a comapirision.

Also, I'm wondering if the tsr8 is using transformers.....
 
I'll scan the schematic when I have some time to drag the scanner in here. And I wasn't saying that the 38 sounded bad... just that the TSR-8 sounded better. I'm still using both :)
 
bloomboy said:
I'll scan the schematic when I have some time to drag the scanner in here.
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I won't bother then :D
And no, EVM, it does not use transformers. Or at least, there don't seem to be any on the channel cards themselves.
 
I didn't expect it to use iron - that is an obvious source of coloration that is pleasant on the ears (most times...) And I presume that the tsr is unbalanced in.

So that leaves the topology and the components of the channel card given the same heads (PS too).

Next tests:

record on tsr, listen on 38

record on 38, listen on tsr
 
evm1024 said:
Next tests:

record on tsr, listen on 38

record on 38, listen on tsr
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Actually I already did that :)

38 recordings sound pretty much exactly the same when played back on the tsr-8, except ever-so-slightly less noisy, and tsr-8 recordings retain some of the good qualities I mentioned when played back on the 38. I did notice the slightly lower noisefloor on the TSR after beck mentioned it.

Beck, did the TSR-8 actually sound better than the otari to you?
 
bloomboy said:
Beck, did the TSR-8 actually sound better than the otari to you?
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Yes it does sound marginally better to me. I was familiar with the MX5050/8 MKII and the 38, both of which I used in professional environments before I brought an 8-track ½” into my personal studio.

It was a tough decision between the Otari and the TSR-8 though. I like the classic layout of the MX5050 and the 3-head design, but the TSR-8 just had something. Now and then TASCAM came up with some good surprises… the TSR-8 is one of those in my book. The sound is more on par with the higher end Otari 24-tracks, IMO.

But you know after a point we’re not talking higher or better… just different. I could probably do what I do just as happily with the Otari 8-track, which is a fine machine.

:)
 
Beck said:
But you know after a point we’re not talking higher or better… just different. I could probably do what I do just as happily with the Otari 8-track, which is a fine machine.

:)
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Yeah, the differences are pretty marginal. But for once I'm pleasantly surprised to have bought something marginally better than I was expecting rather than kicking myself over getting something marginally worse :p
 
bloomboy said:
Actually I already did that :)

38 recordings sound pretty much exactly the same when played back on the tsr-8, except ever-so-slightly less noisy, and tsr-8 recordings retain some of the good qualities I mentioned when played back on the 38. I did notice the slightly lower noisefloor on the TSR after beck mentioned it.

Beck, did the TSR-8 actually sound better than the otari to you?
Click to expand...

OK, that indicates to me that the advances in the tsr8 are in the record circuitry and a general lower noise design.
 
Just a follow-up with a couple more differences I've noticed over time:

-the TSR-8 has a hell of a lot more headroom than the 38; I think this is due to simply having more headroom in the electronics. I'm not sure how this is possible, but with the same tape formulation the TSR-8 will stay in that "saturated-but-not-quite-distorted" range up until well over zero, and well over where the 38 would distort.

-the TSR-8 has markedly less crosstalk, which is a big deal for me because I do a lot of bounces. I pretty much don't have to worry about not bouncing to adjacent tracks, unless it's an extremely loud part... I can usually get all the way to around +3 or +4 before getting any feedback (!) whereas on the 38 I could get to maybe -4 or -5 if I was lucky... definitely an improvement!
 
bloomboy said:
-the TSR-8 has a hell of a lot more headroom than the 38; I think this is due to simply having more headroom in the electronics. I'm not sure how this is possible, but with the same tape formulation the TSR-8 will stay in that "saturated-but-not-quite-distorted" range up until well over zero, and well over where the 38 would distort.
Click to expand...

Assuming that both recorders were in fine condition and freshly calibrated then that's an interesting find.

-the TSR-8 has markedly less crosstalk, which is a big deal for me because I do a lot of bounces. I pretty much don't have to worry about not bouncing to adjacent tracks, unless it's an extremely loud part... I can usually get all the way to around +3 or +4 before getting any feedback (!) whereas on the 38 I could get to maybe -4 or -5 if I was lucky... definitely an improvement!
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Did you test with dbx for both units or not?
 
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