So I THINK I'm almost ready to unleash my 1st record to an unsuspecting world when ..

gentlejohn

gentlejohn

New member
... IT ALL GOES PEAR-SHAPED (AGAIN!!!)

As some of you may know if you've been following my fried & crazed nocturnal posts on here, I've been having more than my fair share of gremlins and ghosts in the machine just trying to get to grips with setting up a meagre project analogue studio this end! I'm definitely more of a musical than a technical person so this hasn't helped but, having gotten completely disillusioned & bogged down by the whole digital thing (the final digital composition I put together incorporated a preposterous track count of 67!) I felt the time had come to strip it all down, sell off most of my digital gear, and attempt to get 'back to basics' as it were! Having cut my teeth with porta-studios growing up, I felt a healthy re-injection of some home-grown, organic, fuzzy analogue warmth was very much in order! In a nutshell, making music with computers had totally lost it's appeal & had begun to feel way too much like being at work!

So ... after much deliberation (plus a few early stages hic-cups on the analogue decision front before settling on my recording weapon of choice!), I opted to go for a TASCAM 388. I say 'opted' but it was more like fight tooth and nail for one! As you're probably aware, this model isn't the easiest piece of kit to track down and, on eBay at least where I finally scored mine, it's certainly not the cheapest either!

I don't wish to revisit the numerous issues I've had to contend with since this unit's been in my possession but there's been more than enough! If you want to 'feel my pain' it's all fairly well documented in the archived posts on here but, let's just say, it's not been plain sailing! Put it this way, timescale-wise I got this unit at the beginning of December LAST year and, to date (mid-July 2014 .... I think!) I have yet to complete ONE single finished piece of music on it! Yes, I admit, in this time it has been holed up in a workshop for two & a half months. And, yes, I admit, I'm not the fastest learner either but I feel it's been one thing after the other just trying to get up'n'running with this particular unit & my chosen associated peripherals. I dunno, maybe I just got unlucky or maybe I'm just not really cut out for this? For numerous different reasons I've just found it ridiculously hard to get off the blocks with it!

To cut an already overly long story short(er), I finally manage to get everything hooked up correctly (I think!) The machine's been professionally serviced & calibrated for the correct tape and, AT LAST, I'm actually starting to make music with it (or at least trying to - it's been a LONG time!) I then run into another audio roadblock - a really annoying mains hum through my powered monitors. After a series of control tests I manage to track it down to a single strip light. OK, so I'm back recording again (this time via candle light & the feint glow of VU meters - it's setting quite a nice ambient atmosphere in which to record in actually, I highly recommend it!) So, I'm laying down my tracks but I'm trying not to run away with myself. This is my first proper recording attempt with this not-so-new-to-me console. I've opted to just keep it plain & simple - no bouncing down or anything, just utilising the 8 available tracks (max). Before I know it, there's my first song on it right there (I got it down in 7 tracks as it turned out - not bad for me!)

I then move on from the performance/recording side of things and put my Mixing Hat on. I've recently ('with a little help from my friends' - you know who you are!) managed to work out how to incorporate two external units as Effects Loops so I'm getting to grips with that and, having been working with purely dry sounds for the longest time now it seems, it makes a refreshing change to be able to add some judicious effect flavours to my pre-recorded tracks. Within just half an hour, much to my surprise, I appear to have a working mix up and I'm thinking to myself: "AT BLOODY LAST, THIS IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT!" I'm relieved and rather pleased with myself I have to say - it's been a long journey!

OK so it's now 'Mixdown Time' (gosh, it's been a while!) Sadly I ran out of budget so currently don't own or have access to a 2-Track analogue recorder. I'm going to have to make do with mixing down to my old MAC so it's time to leave the analogue world behind, for now at least, and convert my first offering to the digital gods - not ideal I know but I suppose, in this day'n'age, you've got to cross over to 'The Dark Side' at some point in the chain - personally I'd just prefer for it not to have to be at this stage but, like I say, I can't afford another recorder right now (still saving!)

So I'm watching the levels as I Mixdown and, when done, I play back my pocket symphony. Hmm?? There's something not right here! "My ears are tired" methinks, I'll just burn off a CD copy and listen back to it with fresh ears on the 'morrow ... zzzZZZ!

It's a new day, it's a new dawn ... now where did I put that CD? I insert said CD into my Denon player set up in the front room downstairs. "Not a bad start!" although I say so myself but, "Hang on, what was that? And again! And again!!" Something's not right here ...

Come the end of the track I have my head in my hands! I compose myself, pour myself a fresh coffee & listen again. "Yep, as I thought!" There's audible 'clips' throughout the entire length of the track - not digital spikes, more like little 'clicking noises'. I make my way to my studio & fire up the Tascam. Having listened back to said song a number of times by now I have a pretty clear map of where these annoying clicks are occuring. I load up my master tape reel and play back the song in its original 8 (well, 7!) track format on the Tascam. "Damn! The clicks are on the source tape! How did I miss this?" And what the hell is it/was it that has caused these annoying clicks??

The answer: DROP INS! Everywhere I dropped in is 'affected' (eg: the harmonica solo just after the 2nd verse on the Lead Vox track; the improvised dubbed Electric Gtr parts all over Track 7; the Backing Vocals for the Mid 8; the interspersed Banjo riffs over on Track 5 which run throughout the song; etc ...) The whole flippin' thing is riddled with these annoying drop in clicks!!! Now, I'm aware of them, they become more and more audibly noticeable with each repeat listen to the extent that this recording is now shot to bits & dead in the water to me. The whole sonic 'vibe' has been destroyed by a technical recording issue and, there's no way round it, I'm just going to have to start again from scratch. I'm not happy to release this in any shape or form.

"So what? It's just a song, just Record it again!" Fair point however, the same problem will no doubt persist ie: every time I touch that Record button I'll get a 'click' sound coming out on the tape! Like I say, the machine's had a full service. It's been professionally calibrated for the right tape. The heads are meticulously clean. It's regularly maintained - the heads/tape path demagged; heads cleaned with 99% Isopropyl. I even moved the console (no easy task - it's like trying to lift a very full wardrobe!) to another location/different power supply yet STILL no joy, the 'drop in click' persists!

I feel I'm running out of options this end to be honest! In essence: For me the whole point of 'downsizing' to analogue 8 track was to ditch the 'option paralysis' I was experiencing recording in the digital domain and to try to make the means of production invisible in order to re-focus my attention on 'music' once more. That was the idea anyway! To date that's not gone to plan AT ALL! I just seem to spend most of my available free time either under the desk in a sea of wires or on here asking questions!

I'm on the verge of throwing the towel in this end truth be known. In light of this: Anybody wanna buy a tempermental TASCAM 388? There's this wax cylinder unit I've got my eye on - surely not a lot to go wrong with one of them and I've heard you can get that nice, true vintage sound with one too! Seriously, apologies for the length of this post! I thought I'd go out with a 'War & Peace' bang.

Over'n'Out amigos. Thanks for all your help. You're a good bunch. All the best! GJ xx :confused:
 
Wow!!! Sorry to hear about these problems.I can't say I have had these sort of problems with my 388. Not yet anyway. Im not sure what could be causing the audible clicks from punching in. These machines were designed to be quiet during that sort of operation,not noisy.
Hopefully before you throw in the towel, you can suss this one out.
Good luck.
 
To be honest....I can count on my two hands the number of times I've done "punch-ins" lately.
If I feel something is that bad that I need to go back an punch-in to fix it....I just erase the track and start over.

Of course, I also work in the digital domain, so rather than ever punching-in....if I hit a sour note, I'll finish that track and leave it alone, and simply record another pass to another track, and keep both, and eventually they all get transfered to the DAW, where I can comp if needed after the fact....instead of punching-in during tracking.

That said...you should not be getting that many clicks.....of course, if you are punching-in mid-note/phrase/word, it's not easy to avoid the noise. Ideally, you need to step back a bit in the track....do all your punching-in during note/word pauses, and you punch-out the same way....so the clicks will not affect the actual music. Of course, you then have to mute those sections during mixdown, and/or try to erase them or whatever works...so with a lot of them, it's still messy.

With tape and limited track counts.....pre-production, completed arrangements and performance practice are key.
If you leave too many loose ends, it's hard to work around them later.
 
When you are dropping in, is it on another track or an actual punch in? Cause I would think you would punch in (if it is on another track) so you could fade it in to the level you need. I even do this on a digital track so the punch in is smoother and can blend in rather than just POP play. I don't know how you could just do a punch in and it sound right.

If you punch in on another track and then mix it to another track maybe give you some lead to fade in the punch in? Just talking out loud.
 
Were you punching in from stop mode or play mode? Both my Fostex R8 and Tascam 32 the punch-in is slightly audible... strange that you didn't hear it whilst mixing?? I'm not sure how tight your punch-ins are with the previous audio material but if you can punch-in a bar or two early to get some silence in the track then you can keep the channel muted until the actual audio comes in.

I think you'll need to learn to work within the limits of your gear and especially with analog recording (as you have seen), it's not going to be a plug n play deal... your recordings and workflow will improve over time as you get familiar with your equipment.
 
I can't figure out why you did not hear the drop ins when mixing???

So you mixed the whole thing, then when the mix was played back you heard the drop ins from the multi-track, but you did not hear it while actually mixing?? Play the twilight zone music here please.

Are you sure the problem is not with the computer putting glitches into the mix when you put that down?

Alan.
 
I think I already told you this, but here is my list of advice I often refer to:

1. Don't Be a Chicken-shit: Do it Rough and Do it Shitty !
2. Your Brain May No Longer Be the Boss !
3. There is Always a Creative Solution to a Creative Problem !
4. Don't Look at What You Don't Wanna Hit !

--

Are you talking about actual punch-ins, or just stopping / recording on the same track? I've never really done true 'punch ins' ... just stops/starts here and there. I've always just moved the fader down between parts during mix ... but I do this anyway with background noise, people talking, etc.

I've generally heard clicks on my gear when stopping/starting as well ... I think this is fairly normal. If you have a final tape with lots of clicks, you'll need to either manually edit them out before mixing, or be pushing faders up & down throughout. I've done it many times. If I have some parts that are particularly problematic, it's not a bad idea to bounce it to another open track with the fader corrections.

Plenty of options if you get creative.

6 months is nothing. We recorded an album summer 08-summer 09. I spent the next two years trying to mix it ... 4 different tape decks, endless attempts. I seriously have like 10 reels of mix attempt tapes for the album. I finally mixed it in 2011 and put in out. There was no magic cure, just lots of patience and diligence, and accepting the limitations.

My 8-track has been out of commission since December ... I've been recording stuff on 2-track. And my 2-track was in storage for the last few months until a couple weeks ago. I guess the thing is ... when digital is not an option (which is the case for me), you just kind of have to work through it.

No reason to throw in the towel. Probably take a little break though. Maybe get a 4-track cassette recorder.
 
miroslav said:
To be honest....I can count on my two hands the number of times I've done "punch-ins" lately.
If I feel something is that bad that I need to go back an punch-in to fix it....I just erase the track and start over.
Click to expand...

Miro...... I don't think all his punches are due to mistakes or bad playing, It sounds like he is doing a lot of drop ins. Dropping in parts in the empty spaces on tracks that already have recorded material on them. I do this a lot too to get more parts into my recordings. But I don't remember having really bad artifacts from doing so. Maybe I'll have to have listen over some of my stuff again to see if there is anything.
 
Hey Folks! Thanks for all the insights, support, advice, et cetera - I completely hear what you're all saying! Okay ... first up, apologies for my last rant there! I was uber-tired & rather exasperated so not at my most dynamic nor positive state of mind ("Don't take the Brown Acid, MAN!!!!!") Yeah, 'woe is me!' and all that. Blah, blah, blah - WHATEVER!!!

I definitely think there's something wrong with my machine though as I have never experienced anything like the problems I've been experiencing with this unit compared to other analogue machines I have worked with in the past. And yes, I DO know how to do a proper drop in/punch in. I'm not trying to punch-in directly onto a pre-recorded phrase or anything and, where possible, I'm giving myself fairly long lead ins when coming up to a part and really just trying to squeeze the most out of my limited track count.

How could I miss these clicks? Well they were FAR worse when the flourescent tube was in place in my recording environment and, then having discovered what I thought was the root of the problem (ie: the light) having taken that out of the equation, obviously with tired ears, I thought I'd solved that particular issue! I then immediately moved on to begin experimenting with delay as an Effects Loop using a unit I wasn't familiar with (a Roland RE-201 Space Echo) and just got 'lost in space' I suppose (plus I'd also sampled a section of 'The Twilight Zone' and incorporated that into the mix too so that probably wasn't helping much ;) ). Bottom-line?: I was trying too hard I guess (or not enough maybe?!)

Anyway, excuses aside. I actually managed to get 3 hours+ sleep last night which is really something for me as I suffer with chronic insomnia so that really doesn't help matters! As a result of a 'good' night's kip I'm feeling fairly refreshed today by my standards so it's: 'Onwards & upwards!' 'Work around your limitations!' (Or just go with them?) 'Thunderbirds are ..GO!!!' (Insert extra motivational phrases here!) Yeah, sod moping eh?

Anyway, I'll try to get something musical of mine posted up on here over the w/e (if it kills me!) and perhaps we can begin to 'talk music' from here on in? That would make a pleasant change - I LIKE MUSIC! Once again, thanks very much for all the advice & input folks - I'll get there!

PS: Regarding recording techniques MIROSLAV .... I completely hear what you're saying but everyone has their own way of working I guess - horses for courses! As you'll have gathered, I'm finding it hard to get going this end of late but, in the past, I would work a studio like one big audio sketchpad. Of course, to do this you (usually!) have to have SOME loose idea of where you're going with a piece to begin with. It definitely makes things easier to have a basic arrangement worked out in advance or things can get mega-complicated ('Good Vibrations' anyone?!) In general, the way I work (or at least used to!) is/was as follows:

With my studio in OFF mode I'd sit at my piano or with my acoustic guitar and try to 'channel an idea'. I'd sit at this imagined riverbank & wait for something to present itself (a bit like 'audio fishing'!) then, if something came along, I'd jam it up and might record a few rough takes of it onto the dictaphone I usually have lying around for capturing moments of fleeting inspiration (so as not to forget bits!) I'd then (hopefully!) begin to formulate the basis of a song with snippets of a la la'd melody and the odd word or phrase here and there. I'd keep chipping away, perhaps find somewhere else to go with it, ponder key changes, alternative ideas for a Middle 8 and the like. When I fgelyt I had enough to be going on with I'd then walk away and distance myself from it. I'd just let it simmer (be it for an hour, a week, whatever!) If the idea 'had legs' I would find that my sub-conscious would constantly remind me of it by playing it back on a constant loop in my head - then I'd KNOW I could be onto something 'cause the thing won't leave me alone! Everything else going on in my life at the time tended to get sideways attention - the 'song' had invaded & then would take over my available head space until I'd get to the point where I'd just have to succumb to it and find the time to exorcise it by getting it down to tape. I would then go back to these acoustic sketches I roughly captured on my dictaphone and, only at this juncture, would I think about firing up the recorder. (Trouble is, having not recorded anything now for near on 8 months, I have quite a considerable backlogue of new music trapped inside my head! As you can imagine from what I've divulged here about my songwriting techniques, it's all rather jumbled up in there right now where the music is concerned - I 'think' my Cranial Hard-Drive Defragmentation procedure is long overdue!)

Getting back to my favoured recording technique .... Starting a new song project, if need be I would stripe a beat to a track using my TR-77 Bentley Rhythm Ace (I'd don't like playing to metronomes!) I'd then lay down either a piano or acoustic guide to give me something musical to hang things on. I might try an ad-libbed scat scratch vocal and then just keep building up from there. In the past this has worked for me but it does involve A LOT of punching in as ideas just 'present themselves' when working in this manner. I suppose it's a bit like painting but with Audio instead of Oils - you paint over stuff as the picture begins to take shape & develop. The 'song painting' informs you where IT wants to go. When recording is such a way you have to just keep an open mind to oversee stuff.

Practically everything I do musically is 'on the fly' - it's hardly ever pre-planned. I don't 'practice' per se and, although some folks refer to me as 'a multi-instrumentalist' I would say I'm more of a 'Jack of all trades, master of none!' I have no desire to be proficient on any one instrument - I just like picking stuff up and trying to get a noise out of it!

Rarely do I sit down and write a complete song from start to finish. For example: I'll hear a snippet of a riff and try to capture that before it pases over. I'll grab the nearest instrument to hand and completely 'wing it' basically just trying to capture the essence of a new musical motif I'm hearing in my head. Now I've got it down in some shape or form I'll have a few repeat listens and the song might suggest to me that this new riff I've played on say, Glockenspiel might in fact sound bettter on ... a Melodica? Hmm ... I've never played a Melodica before but, what the hell! So I go off and source a Melodica from somewhere. "Yes! That would indeed sound good for this part!" so I have a quick practice, record a few fluffed attempts (as a drop in!) and, if I'm lucky, nail the part sooner rather than later! (If it turns out that I just can't play a specific part (like the issue I had trying to play an Oboe a while back!) I'll just whistle it to someone who can play that instrument and pay them what I owe them for their time & input!) And so on, and so on until the song just metamorphasises into what IT wants to be. You get what I'm saying?

The way I 'write' there's no real set plan to begin with - things just kind of 'evolve' until I make an executive decision and say: "OK song, I'm taking over the reigns now and I THINK (?!!) we could be done here - FINITO!"

I hope this in some way explains why it's fairly essential that the machine I record with allows for me to punch stuff in fairly seamlessly! The way my first attempted 'proper' recording with this machine sounds - on close inspection (below the delays) it's shot to ribbons with these little clicks. If I stick with using this unit I'll need to come up with a work around. The old Tascam 388 unit I used to work with never used to suffer from this clicking issue.
 
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j.harv said:
Miro...... I don't think all his punches are due to mistakes or bad playing, It sounds like he is doing a lot of drop ins. Dropping in parts in the empty spaces on tracks that already have recorded material on them. I do this a lot too to get more parts into my recordings. But I don't remember having really bad artifacts from doing so. Maybe I'll have to have listen over some of my stuff again to see if there is anything.
Click to expand...

Even with that...if you punch in a little before and punch out a little after where it needs to go....whatever clicks there are, can be dealt with during mixdown.
Trying to punch a perfect splice going from say....a guitar on the verse, to a piano on the chorus without missing a beat between them....that's not easy to do without glitches. You have to have a really good machine and absolute perfect timing with your punch.
 
I've tried it (almost!) every way JH! Hitting Record whilst in Play mode;rolling in record (hitting Play & Record so the Record blinks then arming the track to put it into record) and trying to drop in with a latched/unlatched foot pedal. The only thing I haven't tried which CJ hit on above is recording from a stop start. I'll try that next time I'm at my desk (hopefully later on this evening!)
 
gentlejohn said:
PS: Regarding recording techniques MIROSLAV .... I completely hear what you're saying but everyone has their own way of working I guess - horses for courses!
Click to expand...

If you want to arrange on the fly as you track....you really need a machine with more tracks, so you have the room to try out stuff without having to punch little bits-n-pieces on already partially used tracks....or....and I know you won't like this......go back to the DAW.
You can still use tape to track to if you want that analog tracking vibe....but at least you'll have unlimited track possibilities by dumping all those bits-n-pieces into the DAW, and then you can fade out any clicks or do whatever you scratch out on your audio "sketchpad “on the fly.

With short track counts and lots of bits-n-pieces....pre-production planning and set arrangements are key before you press REC.

AFA the clicks....if you are giving yourself plenty of lead in/out time....then what's the problem, just mute them out during the mixing, assuming you don't have dozens of punches across all tracks, in which case you need more than two hands. :)
 
Sorry to hear how much hassle you're having with the 388. I've never used one but I agree about the suggestion to maybe sketch stuff out in a daw. Im too used to writing/experimenting/editing on the fly. I think a lot of the limitations of 8-track tape can be a good thing - esp being forced to cut the less vitsl stuff from a mix etc. Sometimes its just clutter. But i'd probably struggle to compose on one. I think they shine when a well rehearsed band hits them live or when a song has been pretty well planned ahead. Obviously there'll be a ton of exceptions to this when out of nowhere stuff just works and comes together off the cuff in an hour or so. But I'd get pretty frustrated without having a daw or something with more tracks/quicker/easier editing to hash out initial ideas on a lot of the time. When (if!) I find a 388 I'll probably spend around 80% of my time with it transferring at least a structure from a computer using 3 or 4 tracks, then old school for the rest...though I also look forward to just hitting record sometimes and seeing where that takes me..
 
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