Poor Man's CLASP recording system coming together.....

altruistica

Member
In my attempt to bring together the best of analogue and digital recording, my latest studio refurb includes TASCAM machines including the MSR16, MS-16 and MX2424 recorders, all synced together using a Midiizer and an IF-1000.
It's taken a while to get to this stage, but it all came together yesterday when the Midiizer began to suddenly behave itself right out of the blue!
The problem it has, is that when even using just one machine (in this case the MSR16) as MASTER, the Midiizer will read the timecode from the machine fine, but when the machine was stopped, the Midiizer would carry on counting code. This meant locking two machines was impossible as the SLAVE machine was forever hunting an imaginary position. The only way to stop the Midiizer from doing it was to apply for tension to the reels upon stopping. This lead me to think it was a problem with tape tension, but even after setting the tape tension well above normal, it was still occurring so I reset the tensions (in EDIT, PLAY , REW and FF) all back to where they should be. After dismantling the Midiizer again (along with another Midiizer which needed the battery changing) and removing the EPROMS, upon rebuilding the Midiizer now works as it should, with the proof to see here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naPL14HbKrI&feature=youtu.be

I can only think now it is either some strange connection /lead problem or more likely, the EPROMS have begun to behave erractically. If anyone has ever seen a Midiizer display this kind of fault (not stopping reading after the machine has stopped and also not reading correct positions during REW and FF) then please let me know what's wrong. The suspense is killing me!

I still have to figure out what's wrong with the other Midiizer. The working one is on EPROM 1.21 I think, and the faulty one (which doesn't operate the serial ACC2 Remote machine commands) but does read timecode is on version 2.00.

Fun and games......

Al
 
That's a lot of cool gear you have....and I'm sure it took a bit of cabling and head scratching to get it all sorted out. :D

I'm curious....if you have the digital deck to which you are dumping the tape tracks, which is what it sounds like you are planning to do from you video....why do you need 4-5 tape decks all locked at the same time, or why do you need to use that many decks to begin with?
Were you just seeing how many you could interconnect with the setup?

What I am getting at, is that if you're dumping to a digital deck or a DAW...you can just work with one tape deck.
Also, the CLASP thing is a bit more/different than just a pure DAW-to-tape sync setup....though you may already know that.

I lock tape deck to computer....use to do it with my Fostex G-16, and now I do it with an Otari-MX80. With the Fostex, it has it's built-in synchronizer/controller (sort of what the Midiiizer does for you)....so that was simple, but it wasn't quite SMPTE frame-level/ DAW sample level lock. With the MX-80 I'm using a MicroLynx, along with a digital clock/sync box, so it's a more tighter/accurate setup.

Oh...that cable at the end of you video....yes, that for a U-Matic video recorder.

And your question above...not all synchronizers and/or code formats (like MTC, or MIDI Clock) can read code when machines are stopped or FF/RW.....check your manual.


Nice work with the whole setup! :thumbs up:
 
Hi Miroslav,

The plan is to record mainly to the MS-16, then dump the tracks to the MX2424. From there, set the mix to how I want it before a final replay from tape for the mixdown (possibly to 1/4" or to digital....not sure yet). I can hear a difference when I record straight to the MX2424 and twhen I transfer stuff that's been recorded on the MS16....it's subtle but most noticeable on vocals.......the 'straight-to-digital' recording sounds 'thinner'.
The idea is to be able to record up to thirty tape tracks......not saying I'll need all them all of the time, but 16 is a little limiting meaning I need to sync two machines. This will usually be achieved with the two MS-16 machines because here in the UK at the moment, the 1" tape supply is healthy, as opposed to the almost non-existent 1/2" supply. Both MSR16 machines were bought off Ebay at a good price although both have needed spending on to get them to this point. The MSR16 machines are really quiet in operation though which makes recording in the control room easier (especially when you're the engineer and performer).
If I do 'overspill' to 30 tracks, then I have a couple more MX2424 in a live rig that could be used to supplement the extra tracks. The Allen & Heath GS3000 which I scored the other day is an ideal desk for this setup, being as it's a 32 channel desk, split in the middles for the times when I'm just using one machine. I've also acquired now five Presonus ACP8/88 which I've got inserted on all the channels. The desk has this really neat setup that sends to the INSERTS via the EQ switches, which means at a flick of a switch the comps and gates can be set to 'track' audio going to tape or audio coming back from tape. It's amazing how tracks can be made to sit better in a mix with a simple threshhold adjustment or ratio tweak.......you can hear the difference rather than in digital 'seeing' the difference but not hearing it. (I know from various forums some people don't really rate the ACP units...and I wouldn't pay £600 for each of them, but have acquired them from the Bay over the last year and am perfectly happy with them in the context of a semi-pro setup)

So, if that end I showed is for a U-matic recorder, could it be adjusted to provide the input to the other MS-16?

The MS-16 in the video is acting a SLAVE, with the connection coming off the IF-1000 parallel interface (a 50pin, Unphenolic port....looks like SCSI 1?) and going to the MS-16 'ACCESSORY' port via a Malco 354-38 pin plug (or ELCO 8016 series). The IF-1000 has a 'MASTER' port (MASTER I/F Connector (24pin, Unphenolic) and an 'AUX' port too. I'm thinking now that all I need to get this working is a lead connecting from the back of the IF-1000 'MASTER' port to the MS-16's 'ACCESSORY' port.........and of course, it correctly wired!

Does that sound about right in my attempt to get two MS-16 machines synced to one another?

Thanks,
Al
 
Mmmmm....I think I lost you.
What exactly is the IF-1000 doing in the setup?
I thought you were mainly using the Midiizer as the sync/contorlkler between the machines?
You know...one deck master, the other slave, and the Midiizer in-between.
If it hase room for 3 transports, and you have the right cables....then one deck master, the other two slaves, and the Midiizer in-between.
At least that's how I would do it with my MicroLynx rig if I was locking the DAW to a couple of tape decks.

Back to the synchorizing the dual MS-16 decks...
So when you say you might need to do up to 32 tracks....do you mean simultaneoulsy, like having 32 mics/instruments all being recorded at once, like a whole band recording....or do you mean a totalo of 32 tracks?

Because if yo umean the latter.....why not just record a bunch of track on one MS-16...dump, then go back and record more.
You just keep a couple of tracks for click/scratch/guide purposes.
If you can get the tape deck and digital recorder to sync, then you can do multkple dumps.
Also....isn't that digital recorder only a 24 track machine....?
 
Hey Miro,

The IF-1000 is a syncing unit for MS-16 recorders (and older ATR machines I think). It uses a parallel interface. I'm repeating all this from manuals as I don't know the difference (in syncing terms) between the use of the words 'serial' and 'parallel'. I imagine it's how the machines talk to one another and receive feedback from one another. You can't sync an MS-16 with just the MIDIIZER. The MIDIIZER is really built for ACCESSORY 2 port machines (TASCAM 238, TASCAM TSR8 (I think), MSR16 and MSR24). The inclusion of a 'PARALLEL I/F' port on the MIDIIZER was probably offered to open the market up to syncing older machines using the additional IF-1000. Judging form the back panel of the MIDIIZER and the manual, the most you could have connected is two tape machines (be these a combination of SERIAL / SERIAL , SERIAL /PARALLEL, PARALLEL /SERIAL, PARALLEL /PARALLEL......master/slave) along with any other midi controlled gear as it will kick out MTC or midi clock info too. With the advent of a machine like the MX2424 (which is the most superior in terms of the 24 track machines....Alesis HD24 / Fostex D2424 , Mackie SDR24) you can also send a copy of the SMPTE code received at the MIDIIZER's MASTER code IN port (RCA) (it has a 'loop out port on RCA) which means you can run two tape machines and the MX2424 and probably a sequencer / computer as well.

I want to try to have available 30 tracks of tape (without bouncing down) to mixdown from. The MX2424 duties are simply playback (to perfect the mix and save wear and tear on the machines) and archive duties. The MX2424 is also the best of the stand-alones in terms of archiving. You can use an ethernet cable to transfer WAV material into and out of the machine. You can EXPORT whole projects too, whereby you just setup the machine and it then does it while you can get on with something else.

I could bounce the stuff and simultaneous recording would never exceed sixteen tracks. The MX is only a 24 track recorder, but with virtual tracks, which if I were to bounce would probably be the way I would do it...ie. bounce down from a group of tape tracks to a stereo pair of the MX while retaining the tape tracks via sync code.

As I've said in the other MIDIIZER thread though, the MIDIIZER is a superb bit of kit when used with the MSR16.......it's like its design model was the MSR16 and the way to link it up to a computer / sequencer.

Al
 
Oh...OK....got it.
The IF-1000 sits between the Midiizer and the MS-16 decks.

Yeah...I'm not too familiar with all the TASCAM connections, but back in the day when I was looking for a 16 track deck, I looked at both the TASCAM and FOSTEX offerings, and at that time I did a lot of research on all that was necessary to sync the decks.
I ended up going with the Fostex G-16 because it didn't need any peripherals to do that....the sync card was part of the deck (an installed option), and the front panel came out and acted as the remote....and I have to say, it was implemented a bit better than the TASCAM options at the time, though right before the G-16, Fostex went through their own black-box "peripherals" period with the E-16 and all the 4030, etc, etc, stuff that was needed for sync and remote control.

Anyway...I see know what you are looking to do. I thought at first you were dumping to the digital recorder and mixing from there.
Yeah, that should work for you.
I've done some mixdowns straight of my 24-track MX-80....but honestly, dumping to the DAW gives me WAY more options for the recorded tracks. I don't bother to dump individual tracks from the tape to the DAW to save the tape or the tape deck wear.
My approach is to simply do a few passes, record a keeper and move on. For the vocals or anything else that's critical, I just keep 2-3 tracks, and when I dump to the DAW....I can comp them there.

I still mix in analog though....but I just use the DAW as my playback deck, and I bring 24 tracks out of the DAW through my mixer and outboard processing. That way, I just need to sync the tape deck and the DAW one time for most songs, as I can get what I need with 23 track (1 track fro SMPTE). For the rare song where I may have more than 23 tracks....I'll do a partial dump to DAW to clear out some of the track on the tape (like the multiple vocal tracks and some of the less critical stuff, like f I have 4 rhythm guitar tracks, I'll just leave one for the second dump, so I can still decent amount of backing tracks on the tape to use for my cue mix while I record those few additional needed tracks.

Keep us posted how it all works out for you in the end! :thumbs up:
 
Oh...OK....got it.
Keep us posted how it all works out for you in the end! :thumbs up:

Yeh, will do.

The only reason I skipped on tracking down the G16 was because I'd heard from a respected engineer here that he'd found lost of problems with the audio cards of G16 machines, something which affected them and not the older E16 machines? I don't know if you've had similar problems......I can't remember what the fault was but something along the lines of Tascam's MSR16 Dolby S cards.

The difference between recording to tape and to digital is something I can hear. I was listening yesterday to some unison vocals (singing the same line) from tape and it struck me how well the voices sat together....I'm sure there is probably something in the 'phase' aspect of sound that differs between digital and analogue.

Whether I will need to play the mix back from tape for a final pass during mixdown is something that I'll only discover when I've recorded a whole new song from scratch using the new method.

Al
 
He was most likely referring to the Fostex G-16 Dolby S machines....the S version chips seem to crap out at some point, and there are none available any more in the known universe, so you have to find a second S machine and use it for parts....but, the problem with the S version chips is still there. Once the Dolby S goes on an audio card....that card is effectively dead.

I have the original G-16 with Dolby C, which Fostex only ran during maybe the first couple of years of gproduction, before switching to the S version. The Dolby C version does not suffer from that problem...:)... and so my G-16 is still running fine.
Granted, when new and working, the S version NR sounded a little better than the C version, but nothing outrageoulsy better. I've never had any complaints about my Dolby C version.

It's just hard finding the Dolby C versions as there weren't as many made as the S.....though these days it's you just don't see too many G-16 machines coming up on the market in either version.
The G-16 came out maybe 5 years too late, IMO...on the tail end of the pro-sumer tape deck production. Even when I was buying mine the music store salesman was telling me that I should wait because there was this "new" technology coming out very shortly that would eliminate the pro-sumer tape deck market altogether ( wanted the tape deck, so I ignored him).... not too long after that came the ADAT....so the Fostex G-16 and G-24 production ran for a few more years and that was the end. :(
Had they come out with the G series a few years earlier, some of the Dolby S chips issues would have been probably dealt with, plus there would be way more machines now on the used market.
 
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