1 VST Host Track, Multiple Instruments, Multiple Tracks

Damonthenomad

New member
Okay...so, I apologize in advance if my dilemma has been answered somewhere else. As you can see...I'm new to this forum, so please bear with me. I'm also (somewhat) new to Reaper/audio recording, so please keep that in mind as well. :)

Here's what I'm trying to do, and problems that I'm encountering so far. I want to use a setup with Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra/sfz player. I'm trying to create a full virtual symphonic orchestra (placement, panning, levels, etc) with SSO on 1 track as a host. So I created the host track, and opened up several instances of sfz player (one for each type of instrument in the orchestra) in the track. From there, I can't figure out a way to output each instrument from the host track to it's own channel, and then "receive" that channel on the respective instrument track. I read a thread someone posted about this same issue (can't link since I'm new), but it didn't seem like he got the answer he was hoping for. From what I understand, it seems to indicate a problem with SSO/sfz, not Reaper?

I'm also having a hard time creating buses. I've read threads on this forum about buses, sends, receives, etc., and I'm having some (possibly) unique issues. This issue has been with Kontakt/GSCW Drumkit. My goal: 1 VST host track/bus sending to individual tracks for their own mixing/fx. This also would be a HUGE help in lessening CPU load, only having 1 instance of Kontakt running. I've done both sending the host track to all individual tracks, as well as sending all individual tracks to the host track. Doing it both ways, I end up only getting signal from the bus...no signal for each individual track in the bus. I've created folders and haven't had any luck with that either. Someone...please...help me. A solution that could solve both problems together would be amazing, but I'm not expecting miracles here...

Thanks in advance for any and all help, guys!
 
You need to add 1 sfzplayer to each individual track, not all on the same track.

I don't know anything about kontakt drums but how are you setting up the track for the drums?

If you use the option to create a track for virtual instrument (I can't remember the exact wording) it should ask you if you want the buses set up. That's the easy way. It works that way with every vsti drums I've tried so I would assume kontakt is the same.
 
I don't know anything about kontakt drums but how are you setting up the track for the drums?

Yeah, I've created a track to host kontakt, where I've loaded the GSCW drumkit. I've then created subsequent tracks, labeling them kick, snare, L tom, R tom, etc, and sent them to track 1 (kontakt).

If you use the option to create a track for virtual instrument (I can't remember the exact wording) it should ask you if you want the buses set up. That's the easy way. It works that way with every vsti drums I've tried so I would assume kontakt is the same.

If I pick that option, it tries to create a whole bunch of tracks that I don't think I need:

kontakt routing.png

If possible, I'd like to just keep it simple...something like this:

Track 1: Kontakt (with GSCW drumkit loaded in Kontakt)
Track 2: Kick (sent to track 1)
Track 3: Snare (sent to track 1)
Track 4: L Tom (sent to track 1)
Track 5: R Tom (sent to track 1)
Track 6: Floor Tom (sent to track 1)

...you get the picture. This is what I've been doing, and during playback, I only get a level from track 1. Is it because all the other tracks only contain MIDI data, and no vst on each track to produce their own sound, and therefor no output level? I'm only asking because I don't understand how it all works...

I want to record each part of the kit to the corresponding track, for greater individual mixing capability. I'd like to be able to adjust levels for each part of the kit, as well as the kit overall, but it's not giving me that option.
 
Watched the video btw...is there an easier way to do things than this (involving fewer tracks)?

I think you might be confusing midi tracks with audio tracks. When Reaper creates the new tracks for you, aren't they the tracks to which the audio from Kontakt will be sent? You're description above suggests you want to create tracks to hold the midi information that will be sent to Kontakt. You don't need separate track for each midi note (i.e. each piece in the drum kit) - all midi information can go in a single track, which should be sent to the track where the Kontakt plugin instance resides.

It's a long time since I set this up myself in Reaper, so I can't quite remember how it all works, however I followed that video I linked and it works nicely, with an audio track for each channel coming out of Kontakt that I can mix independently.
 
I think you might be confusing midi tracks with audio tracks. When Reaper creates the new tracks for you, aren't they the tracks to which the audio from Kontakt will be sent? You're description above suggests you want to create tracks to hold the midi information that will be sent to Kontakt. You don't need separate track for each midi note (i.e. each piece in the drum kit) - all midi information can go in a single track, which should be sent to the track where the Kontakt instance resides.

It's a long time since I set this up myself in , so I can't quite remember how it all works, however I followed that video I linked and it works nicely, with an audio track for each channel coming out of Kontakt that I can mix independently.

Sorry if I didn't do a good job explaining my thoughts...

When I create an individual MIDI track in Reaper and load a VST plugin to that track (let's just say Steinberg's "The Grand" for instance), I can see the level and hear the sound of the plugin on that track, without needing a separate audio track. I could create five different MIDI tracks, all with their own "The Grand" VST loaded if I wanted to, and they would all make a sound simultaneously and show a level on each of their tracks. This is common knowledge that you and everyone already knows. What I want to know is, why doesn't this same principal work for multiple tracks each containing one piece of a drum kit, with one track hosting Kontakt/the drum kit (in order to cut down on CPU load) and output the sound to those tracks for individual mixing? Ideally, if what I'm suggesting even works (I really don't know), I would actually prefer to have the track with Kontakt SENDING the sounds to the other MIDI tracks, rather than just receiving the data from those tracks, if that will give each of those tracks their own signal/sound. Following the video you linked does work, but doesn't having both audio and MIDI tracks use up more CPU than necessary?

I apologize if I am coming across offensively...I assure you, it's not my intention. I genuinely don't know the reason why this doesn't work, because like I said, I'm fairly new to audio recording/Reaper...
 
Sorry if I didn't do a good job explaining my thoughts...

When I create an individual MIDI track in Reaper and load a VST plugin to that track (let's just say Steinberg's "The Grand" for instance), I can see the level and hear the sound of the plugin on that track, without needing a separate audio track. I could create five different MIDI tracks, all with their own "The Grand" VST loaded if I wanted to, and they would all make a sound simultaneously and show a level on each of their tracks. This is common knowledge that you and everyone already knows. What I want to know is, why doesn't this same principal work for multiple tracks each containing one piece of a drum kit, with one track hosting Kontakt/the drum kit (in order to cut down on CPU load) and output the sound to those tracks for individual mixing? Ideally, if what I'm suggesting even works (I really don't know), I would actually prefer to have the track with Kontakt SENDING the sounds to the other MIDI tracks, rather than just receiving the data from those tracks, if that will give each of those tracks their own signal/sound. Following the video you linked does work, but doesn't having both audio and MIDI tracks use up more CPU than necessary?

I apologize if I am coming across offensively...I assure you, it's not my intention. I genuinely don't know the reason why this doesn't work, because like I said, I'm fairly new to audio recording/Reaper...

I don't think you can have the midi and audio in the same track, as you describe. However, you can use a single midi track (which can be the same track as where the Kontakt instance resides, I believe) and have Kontakt send the audio to separate audio tracks (and each track can be a different instrument loaded into the same Kontakt instance). I wouldn't worry about CPU overhead of having an extra midi track, it is minimal compared to the overhead of Kontakt itself (unless you are having CPU issues working this way).
 
Sorry if I didn't do a good job explaining my thoughts...

When I create an individual MIDI track in Reaper and load a VST plugin to that track (let's just say Steinberg's "The Grand" for instance), I can see the level and hear the sound of the plugin on that track, without needing a separate audio track. I could create five different MIDI tracks, all with their own "The Grand" VST loaded if I wanted to, and they would all make a sound simultaneously and show a level on each of their tracks. This is common knowledge that you and everyone already knows. What I want to know is, why doesn't this same principal work for multiple tracks each containing one piece of a drum kit, with one track hosting Kontakt/the drum kit (in order to cut down on CPU load) and output the sound to those tracks for individual mixing? Ideally, if what I'm suggesting even works (I really don't know), I would actually prefer to have the track with Kontakt SENDING the sounds to the other MIDI tracks, rather than just receiving the data from those tracks, if that will give each of those tracks their own signal/sound. Following the video you linked does work, but doesn't having both audio and MIDI tracks use up more CPU than necessary?

I apologize if I am coming across offensively...I assure you, it's not my intention. I genuinely don't know the reason why this doesn't work, because like I said, I'm fairly new to audio recording/Reaper...

It does. This is exactly what I do with Reaper / Addictive drums. You put the MIDI track on a single track and there are individual AUDIO tracks for each of the 16 drum channels. You don't need anything but a single MIDI track for drums because that's all your plugin's going to give you anyway. You just need the individual audio tracks.

No idea how to do that with Kontakt - but it's not a Reaper issue, it's a Kontakt issue. How are you adding the VST? Using "Add virtual instrument to new track" from the menu? That should activate everything for you and create all the tracks you need automatically. Does for me with Addictive.

Once that's set up, THEN you worry about creating MIDI programming on the MIDI track...
 
I am not sure this adds to the conversation, but as a general rule (since I have been doing MIDI for a long time), you have a single midi track and then a drum kit (how many sounds you may have). Each note is mapped to a sound (c1 kick, c#1 snare, etc.), when that note is played, that sound is created. Channels are usually reserved for MIDI information to send to equipment. When MIDI first started, you could have hardware that you could route to that channel to talk to the equipment.

So, one track of MIDI notes for the drums (or as many as you like) and each MIDI note mapped to the drum sound. You can then route for further processing as you would any other instrument. With drums you can make it more complex, but to start with, I would keep it simple. Adjust the mix of the drum kit inside the VST for the track output.

I hope this helps.
 
It does. This is exactly what I do with Reaper / Addictive drums. You put the MIDI track on a single track and there are individual AUDIO tracks for each of the 16 drum channels. You don't need anything but a single MIDI track for drums because that's all your plugin's going to give you anyway. You just need the individual audio tracks.

No idea how to do that with Kontakt - but it's not a Reaper issue, it's a Kontakt issue. How are you adding the VST? Using "Add virtual instrument to new track" from the menu? That should activate everything for you and create all the tracks you need automatically. Does for me with Addictive.

Once that's set up, THEN you worry about creating MIDI programming on the MIDI track...

I GOT IT TO WORK!!!! That's the good part. The bad part is, I tried to duplicate the process to see if I remembered exactly what I did, and I couldn't get it to work a second time. The other (semi) good part: I saved the file that did work, and made a template out of it, so I can just call that one up anytime I need the kit.

I kind of did what you were suggesting. If I remember correctly, I created a new track to serve as the host for Kontakt. In the FX window in Reaper, I selected "Build multichannel routing for output of selected FX" under options. I got a box of dialog like this:

kontakt routing new.png

Except somehow, it knew the names of the tracks in Kontakt, and where it says "Kt. st. 1, Kt. st. 2, Kt. st. 3" etc, above, it instead created track titles that corresponded with those names ("Stereo 1/2->New track 2 "Kt. Kick," Stereo 3/4->New track 3 "Kt. Snares,"...)

This was the only instance so far where the whole kit worked without any issues. Now, every time I try to duplicate this process, I get the above image's results, and there are usually issues with kit not working 100% (for some reason, I get sound from every track of the kit in Kontakt except the kick...). Idk...it's weird. Probably a user error though, so if anyone can help me figure this one out, that would be greatly appreciated :)

Here's what I'm trying to do, and problems that I'm encountering so far. I want to use a setup with Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra/sfz player. I'm trying to create a full virtual symphonic orchestra (placement, panning, levels, etc) with SSO on 1 track as a host. So I created the host track, and opened up several instances of sfz player (one for each type of instrument in the orchestra) in the track. From there, I can't figure out a way to output each instrument from the host track to it's own channel, and then "receive" that channel on the respective instrument track. I read a thread someone posted about this same issue (can't link since I'm new), but it didn't seem like he got the answer he was hoping for. From what I understand, it seems to indicate a problem with SSO/sfz, not Reaper?

Figured this one out, too. Actually, by following what I did with Kontakt essentially. I decided to type up step by step instructions so anyone else that wanted to do this and was having the same issue will have the answer :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How To Create an Orchestra using SFZ/SSO, the CPU-Friendly Way:

Step 1: Insert a new track. This will be the host track for the vst/instrument.

Step 2: Load "sfz player" vst in FX and select desired SSO instrument (ex: "1st Violins
Sustain").

Step 3: Select the "Plug-in Pin Connector" tab (should say "2 out" by default) in the FX window, and click the + button in the bottom left corner
until you have your desired number of outs. The number of outs should be 2X the number of instances (of the host instrument) you want.
For example, if I want 12 "1st Violins Sustain" in my orchestra, I need 24 channels total. Channel 1-out/channel 2-out is selected by
default, so continue this alternating pattern (3-out/4-out, 5-out/6-out, etc.) until all of the channels are routed. Close the FX window.

Step 4: In the Track Control Panel, right click and select "Insert multiple tracks." Under "Insert how many tracks," input the number of instances you
want, and type the name of the instrument (i.e. "1st Violins Sustain") in the "Name" section. Reaper will automatically number each of the
tracks in numerical order when they are created.

Step 5: Select I/O on the host track. The "Track channels" and "Parent channels" tabs should reflect the number of outs created in Step 3. Send
the host track to all of the "instance" tracks created in Step 4. The first instance track (ex: 1st Violins Sustain 1) should already be routed
to Stereo Source 1/2 under the Audio tab. Route the other instance tracks accordingly (1st Violins Sustain 2: Audio:3/4=>1/2, 1st Violins
Sustain 3: Audio:5/6=>1/2, so on and so forth) until all are routed. Close the I/O Routing window.

Step 6: Create a bus track, and set it to receive all of the instance tracks (NOT THE HOST TRACK!). No routing adjustments are needed here. This
step is absolutely necessary. Without it, adjusting the fader on each of the instance tracks will not change the volume in the mix at all!

FINAL STEP: Make sure "Master/Parent send" is disabled on ALL TRACKS (instance tracks, bus) except for the Host track. Otherwise, the overall
level of the instruments (from each host) will be doubled.

Repeat all of these steps for each new orchestra instrument you want to add.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A lot of this information, like the routing steps, might be common sense for many people on this forum, but I just wanted to type this up in plain English so any newbie like me could understand things easily (hopefully). I might not have even done things "correctly" for all I know. That's part of why I'm posting my discovery and methods here. :thumbs up:

Any thoughts, suggestions, or questions, are most definitely welcome :)

EDIT: Last important thing of note, ALL of the MIDI data for each instrument needs to be on the "Host" track for that instrument, otherwise, it won't play in any of the instances.

...And after 4 edits to this post, hopefully that's it!
 
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