Stereo Widener plugins and their relatives:

Melda MStereoProcessor, DrMS, SoundToys MicroShift, PSP StereoPacck, etc..

Do you use them? Which ones? Are they clean, or do they leave garbÃ*ge attached?

Thanks
 
I tend not to use them unless it's for a special effect. Even then, I will use it on individual instruments, not an entire mix.

The main "garbage" these leave behind is phase anomalies. Which is why I don't like using them on a whole mix.
 
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Yep. Effects like these are best used on individual instruments.

I use the MicroShift quite often with acoustic guitars. Typically as an FX track sent from a group. Very sparingly tho.

Effects like these can make you go overboard really quickly. Be careful.
 
I got Microshift not long ago and it works great to add a touch of stereo depth to vocals. I've used Channel Tools included with Cakewalk for many years, does a similar stereo spread effect but I feel I get more control with channel tools. Channel Tools lets me swap and determine width of the signal in each side. I used to do this by hand, doubling and offsetting tracks. Much better with this plugin. And it works great in doubled instruments like guitar, I can fatten left and right up, the result being a very wide and full sounding rhythm track. Because it's NOT a chorus effect it doesn't color the tone/attitude of the instrument.

I find Microshift can sound a bit chorusy if you lean into it too aggressively.

Waves also has a stereo imaging plugin that works similar to channel tools, but I found it clunky and since I already had a good working knowledge of channel tools haven't used it much. I do sometimes use the Waves Center plugin, especially when I don't have access to the mix. It's good for controlling vocal presence, but can also be used to increase the stereo image.
 
I have used Waves ADT to give acoustic guitars some width. Just turn off the delay and pan the outputs. But I have never used it for stereo widening.
 
I have used Waves ADT to give acoustic guitars some width. Just turn off the delay and pan the outputs. But I have never used it for stereo widening.

I've got WAVES- ADT, CENTER and S1 stereo imager and yes, they'd all do the job.
 
Thanks for those replies. I am currently doing a trial of StereoDelta. I'm not sure what I think of it yet, except that if I crank it too hard, the phones seem to fill with pressure. "10" is seldom a safe place on the dial.

Has anyone here tried the stereo products by Melda or PSP ?
 
I'm not sure what I think of it yet, except that if I crank it too hard, the phones seem to fill with pressure.
That is the sound of having the left side 180 degrees out of phase with the right. If you take that and collapse it to mono, it will cancel out completely. That's the main reason that these things need to be used sparingly.

I've found that it is always better to track something twice, rather than use a widener. But sometimes, you have no choice.
 
Mid-Side processing can help to sharpen up stereo imaging as well. Doesn't give you wacky artifacts like you can get with phase rotator type stuff.
 
I remember about 15 years ago trying to find an effect that sounded like the 'stereo wide' button on a boombox. Some recorded music sounded awesome on that thing.

Over the years I have realized that it has more to do with the construction of any mix than it has to do with the width/stereo separation. Plugins like these should be used very sparingly as most do mess with the phase and cancel out frequencies in order to achieve the effect.

I just say be careful and ask exactly what your plans are for such an effect. If strapping in on a master out of a mix I would say fuck no. Not ever...
 
Are the widener plugins just taking the mono/stereo signal and doing the mid-sides thing with it?

Depends on the plug. Most are basically putting things out of phase from the left and right sides. Some add delay and harmonics.

This is why I say be careful if you are just using it on master out. That can quickly ruin a project. I would never use one on a final mix. I learned that quick long ago using OZONE on a home mastering project. Just because the tool is available does not make it necessary.
 
Depends on the plug. Most are basically putting things out of phase from the left and right sides. Some add delay and harmonics.

This is why I say be careful if you are just using it on master out. That can quickly ruin a project. I would never use one on a final mix. I learned that quick long ago using OZONE on a home mastering project. Just because the tool is available does not make it necessary.


I am mainly in search of things to enhance, improve, or perfect (impossible!) both lead and harmony vocal tracks, thus my investigation of the widener thing.
 
Yeah, mid-side processing on its own gives you quite a bit of control. You can overdo it but you can also use it more sparingly. There are a large number of guides on Google. Basically allows you to do things like EQ, compression and reverb differently on the mid and side channels.

As said, stereo widener stuff often uses phase rotation techniques to do its thing. At extremes, it can sound like your brain is on the wrong side of your skull. Not good.

Mind you, a phase rotator can be handy if you're trying to mix drums or something and the mic placement was less than optimal. You can nudge individual tracks around to try and shape the low end better. On the 2 buss? It can get wacky in a heartbeat. Mid-side processing is easier to control.

There are a number of tricks for vocals using delay and/or doubling techniques that will sound better than messing with phase plugins. It's a specific sound, but in the right context it can work well. You can go to Perry Farrel extremes and do 7 vocal takes if that's your thing. Whisper tracks. One or two extra mics farther out in the room. Belting it out from the diaphragm.
 
I remember about 15 years ago trying to find an effect that sounded like the 'stereo wide' button on a boombox. Some recorded music sounded awesome on that thing.
But very often music that you know well will sound completely wrong. "Is this some obscure remix I've never heard? No, you've just pushed the fucking button!"

And yeah that feeling of having your brain pulled out your ears is rarely pleasant.

I think it's important to remember that M/S processing depends on phase fuckery too. People claim that it is "mono compatible", but that's because the side signal cancels out when collapsed to mono. Add reverb to you side signal, decode back to stereo and then sum to mono. Reverb's gone. This is thought to be a good thing by some because supposedly the reverb would clutter the mix when it is collapsed. I think it just changes the mix completely, and is very rarely what I want.
 
High passing the difference ("side") channel is a common technique with a number of benefits, such as making things with panned bass not sound uncomfortable in headphones/earbuds.

I'm not sure why someone would add reverb to the difference channel on a stereo mix, but if it's specifically meant to be decoded by Dolby Pro Logic it could make sense. Having a surround channel reverb go away could actually be part of making a mix degrade gracefully to mono.
 
For vocals I would definitely recommend sticking with delay and reverb to put them in their proper places on the listening "stage" rather than any "wideners". I will use wideners , as an obvious effect, where the phase anomalies are exactly what I want. But to keep your vocals artifact free I feel that using sends to a short and long delay and one mono and one stereo reverb sends will sound better. Keeping the lead vocal eq'd and 'verbed differently as well as the standard "lead vocal in the center, backing vocals to the side and rear" is the best start but I have seen people use duplicate vocal tracks with different effects(pitch shifted, flanged etc) sneaked up behind the lead where it isn't actually audible yet fattens and or adds excitement/interest to the main audio. Can also be done with backrounds of course
 
Another thing to consider is that a single point source like vocals can't be "stereo" unless there is some kind of delay or double or something causing phase anomalies. Even then, you're not going to get a wide stereo spread like you would capturing a source truly capable of providing stereo information like a piano, drum kit or orchestra. Some of the tricks mentioned can be cool for the right production, but one size does not fit all. I'm not sure you'd want to sound like Ozzy or Perry Farrell in a folk context. Then again, what do I know? Give the kids what they want as long as it sells.

Source is king. A great performance through a decent chain in a good sounding space, maybe with some gobos or packing blankets behind the singer to cut down unwanted reflections is a good place to start. Lead vocals should be front and center. Using things like delay and reverb can add some dimension to a point, but can also quickly pull the focus of the vocal back into the mix if it's too much.
 
Lead vocals should be front and center. Using things like delay and reverb can add some dimension to a point said:
^^+1. Or too long a delay or reverb time
 
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