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dobro

dobro

Well-known member
I recorded a song this weekend, and when I played it back, I was impressed - best delivery of that song ever. Too bad about the clipping that disfigured it, though. And this despite my using the new compressor. It's cuz I don't know how to use it. Yelp!

First question is about how threshold works. If I understand it correctly, a low threshold means the compressor's compressing loads of stuff, and a high threshold means only really loud stuff gets compressed. Is that right?

Second question: what's a good setting to start with? 0 dB? Higher? Lower? I'm working with vocals and acoustic guitar.

Isn't it interesting? You get a new piece of gear, and have to dummy down all over again.
 
Hey Dobro,
I'm in the same boat as you! Just got a pair of RNCs to help smooth out levels for my solo ac. gtr/vocal pieces. Too many knobs! I've just been playing back tons of stuff I've recorded, and turning the knobs and listening carefully to what each knob does...As for settings, it seems each song has its own settings, so experiment and take good notes!
Good luck!
-Evan
 
Well.... I just figured out how to use my compressor. And by that I mean I now know what all the knobs do =)
Read the manual, it really helps to get a basic understanding of how to use it.
 
Threshold: The input level at which the compressor actually starts "doing it's thing". Any signals below the threshold level are passed through the compressor unchanged.

Ratio: The amount of compression applied for every dB above the threshold level. Let's say you have the threshold set at -10 and a ratio of 2:1. At an input level of -10, the signal is passed through unchanged. An input signal of -9 will result in an output of -9.5 (half of 1dB above the threshold). An input signal of -8 results in an output level of -9 (half of 2dB above the threshold). A ratio of 3:1 would reduce by one third... you get the picture.

Attack: How long it takes for the compressor to "kick in" after the level exceeds the threshold. Longer attack times allow the initial peak to get through before starting to reduce the output level (e.g., letting the initial "crack" of a snare to poke it's head through the mix).

Hope that helps some, I'm new to all the nuances myself.
 
Dobro

A compressor can be a tricky new thing to learn.

To read all about comressors you dont need my help. There are tons of stuff all over the net and at this site.

I'll try to give you a starting approach to your compressor.

Start by determing the ratio - do you want to limit or compress?

To compress a natural sound typically has a ratio from 2:1 to 6:1. for limiting it shoud start around 10:1.

In your specific case of vocals and guitar I can only give a suggestion becuase without hearing it it's a shot in the dark !.
After the ratio, adjust the attack and relese time- I would start in general from a 1ms attack time, and release time of 1/2-1 second. This is very genera .

Then adjust the threshold for the amount of gain reduction that you want, typiclly a 3-6dB of reduction at the strongest part of your track.

I'm not going to get into the constint discussion of
"how can I help you with out hearing " and the all famous
"compression can kill he's guitar I NEVER compress acoustic G." I'll leave that up to you to decide AND - I would use these settings as a starting point only. You take it from here. AND of course compress only when needed. (I hope I satisfied every body) :)

For Acoustic guitar try this
Ratio - 3:1 to 5:1
Attack - slower times will accentuate the pick. Faster will do the opposite . Play with it
Relese time - between 1-2 seconds usually will sound the smoothest.
Threshold 3-7dB reduction on the loudest part of your track
A faster attack time can produce a dull sound so be carefull.On vocaks try this

33-5ms with a long relese time, about 1/2-1 sec.
Ratio about 2:1 to 6:1
with about 3-6dB of reduction at the loudest part of your vocals.
Carefull with the "s" and "t"'s that you dont exaggerate them by compressing ( poping in after the initial "s" or "t"t of the word.

I'm sure I should end with the ever famous words "Just play around with the knobs untill you learn to use it.
change on a sound you know. the knobs and see how they affect the sound".
There. Now I'm sure I covered my Ass.
Good luck

[This message has been edited by Shailat (edited 05-16-2000).]
 
Obviously this is going to take a bit longer than I thought. :) Thanks for all your replies.

I read the manual a couple of times - it's useful for describing what all the knobs do, but doesn't give any idea about how or where to start.

I read the following good article about compression at the Drawmer website:
http://www.proaudio.co.uk/drawmer/comp.htm

Again, useful information, but it doesn't include information about threshold settings, which is my main focus right now. (As for attack and release, I can rely for the time being on the Auto setting - I'll play with attack and release timeslater after I've managed to nip the clipping in the bud).

Shailat - my Behringer's Threshold knob goes from -40 to +25. What do you mean by "3-6 dB reduction"? Do you mean 3-6 dB below 0 dB?
 
Dobr: Yeah that can be confusing. Depending on the actual levels in the input signal and the threshold setting, the act of compression will shave a few dBs so that the peak meter reading of the output will be lower. This is the 3 to 6 dB reduction he's talking about. There's a direct readout of this in the software compressor in Vegas Pro. I've found that 4dB is a nice happy medium . Less than that and the compression is slight, more and it's overbearing.
 
Dobro,
Drstawl explained it well.
Do you have on your compressor a series of LED's?.
There you should be able to see the gain reduction as it refers to the amount the signal has turned down once it crosses the threshold.
 
Shailat - perhaps drstawl explained it well, but I'm no wiser. I keep reading the manual, other descriptions of compression, and the posts in this thread, but I still don't understand. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I'm just a bit slow.

I want to be able to record without clipping, and that's why I bought the compressor. Any suggestions about what settings on my Behringer MDX 2200 will help me to achieve that aim?
 
Your not slow. It realy is difficult to understand when you first with a compressor.

Lets start by you telling me what you have on the panal of your compressor and we'll take it from there.


Are you sure you know how to hook it up and that the compressor is working at all? Check to see if the bypass (if you have one) is on or off etc...

As for giving you a specific setting I cant do that with out hearing and seeing you music.

For you to understand how the Threshold works you need to hear it.

Play your music and set a compression of 4:1.
Then move your threshold button up and down
Then you'll see that as you move it down the sound will be more crushed that's becuase - more sound is being compressed. As you move it up you'll see less ans less of a affect.
Once you understand this you can move on to the setting of the threshold.

You need to set it so that at the loudest part of you (let say) "vocals", you will reduce the sound by 3-6dB. How do you know that you are ? You will see a gainreduction meter on you compressor that tells you how much you are reducing.

Take you music taht was clipping and set a threshold for starters at 0dB with a 4:1 ratio.
Now play with the threshold by moving it downwards.
Check your meters to see the affect and......
Get back to me


Good Luck !
 
Okay, Shailat, I owe you one - I've cracked it. Thanks. It's the gain reduction you pay attention to, and the threshold setting is just a way of getting there. I understand drstawl's post now too.

Now I've got another problem - not with using the compressor, but with the sound it produces. I don't like the compressed sound as much as the uncompressed sound. With the compressor, although the sound is attractive enough (and it's nice not to be clipping all the time), it reminds me of a girl wearing lots of cosemtics. Pretty, but lots of makeup. The sound without compression is clearer and sparkles more - I like the detail. With compression, it's like detail gets airbrushed out.

I don't know if this is the particular compressor I have (Behringer MDX 2200), or whether they all have a similar effect. I expect it's the latter.

Conclusion: if I can do it without the compressor, that's the way I'll do it.
 
Dobro,
Although your conclusion is a good one It can very well be that your not setting the compressor corectly.

There is no question that most compressors will add a little color but by your description it sound more like
the attack time is not set well.
When a attack is to fast the compressor will turn down transients and this could cause instruments to lose life and clarity.
another problem that also might be in your case is if the compressor is always !! reducing the gain then again you will lose clarity or worse the original sound that you had will be altered.
There should be times during the track were the compressor is not reducing gain.
The object is to use as little as possible of compression WHEN you use it.

Also setting the ratio is important don't over do it. Try to start with a light compression 2:1-3:1 and take it from there. Use your ears and not only your eyes as you look at the meters.
I think your getting the hang of it but it takes a bit of experinece to control this monstor.

I find it to be a essential tool for recording and it shound if used properly enhance your tracks and mixis.

Dont give up on it yet !


[This message has been edited by Shailat (edited 05-19-2000).]
 
I'm far from having given up - I'm putting it to the test.

Tonight I tried out various attack settings with different mics. I couldn't hear any big difference (maybe the 15 ms setting sounded a bit darker/muddier than the faster times), and I couldn't see any difference in the waveform. First question: can any of you hear a difference when you set attack times at different values?

I'm happy to be clipping less witht he compressor, but what was a compressor designed to do? Help you track without clipping? That's the second question. :)
 
Hello Shailit! You seem to be pretty well versed on compression. My question leads in generally the same direction but different format.What is the difference between
Hard/Soft knee. In what applications would one use this and what would it accomplish.
I also tried "the ear test" when depressing the buttons to determine the sound difference
between these 2 settings yet and even tried using them in vocal applications initiating both bypass and on but i still cant hear the difference. Not to take you away from DOBRO,
but if you cn offer a lil' insight i would greatly it.Thanks
 
Shaillat, Drstawl, and Dobro,

Thank you for clearing up something that has puzzled me. Many posters describe compressor threshold setting in dBs. It never occurred to me to watch the LEDs while I turned the knob! Thanks again.

frangre
 
Dobro,

Glad to hear your working on it !.

For your second question - For controling peaks only you should limit and not compress. A limiter will remove spikes and peaks from your track and maximize loudness. ( there are also negetive things too like add distortion)

A compressor will level out dynamic problems, and give you a more consistant averege leve. A;so it willl faten your tacks making them sound fuller.

AS to your first question - You should hear the difference in the initial attack of you instrument. On a fast attack setting it will cut sharp peaks and the instrument will sound smoother. On a slow attack (letting the initial attack to come through before going to work) will give you a punchier sound or more clear attack.
Example - when playing acoustic guitar with a fast attack, it will sound duller then with a slow one becuase on the slow attack the compressor will let the instruments attack of the note, pass through before it compresses. and that will make the attack sound exxgerated = clear with lots of defenition.
On a fast attack it will compress the peak of the guitar alond with the rest of the note and so it will sound duller.
This can be very important to making it stand out in your mix. You got to love it !!

* Hit a snare a couple of times through a compressor.
* Set the ratio between 3:1 and 10:1
set the release so that the leds on the gain go off between hits.
* Set threshold at 3 to 9dB gain reduction
* Set the attsck very fast ! and now slow it down and "listen to the attack of the snare" !.
You should hear the difference !
Attack is most clear when using instruments like bass snare guitar. __________________________________________________________
Mister qcue,

Hard knee and soft knee are similar to using a attack.
On hard knee the compressor will compress the full ratio you set, as soon as the signal passes the threshold.
With soft knee it will start to compress but with a small ratio. and as the input level gets higher, it starts to compress with a higher ratio. In short it is a gentler process.Little by little untill it's at the full ratio you set.
With soft knee you will get a more gentle compression becuase if the input is around the threshold you set, it won't clamp on your signal with a very high ratio EVEN though you might have set it to 5:4 as the input level goes higher it starts to raise the ratio to your setting
and so... compressing harder.
Of course soft knee sounds more natural.

You would use a soft knee for a compression on a mix or something you think needs subtle compression.
Hard knee you could use on bass or a kick drum etc..
 
Hmm... So - limit when tracking to prevent clipping, and compress when mixing/mastering to fatten things up?
 
let me chime in.

depends on what you're tracking, and what type of equipment you are using.

for instance, if you're tracking to digital equipment then you don't have to worry about tape saturation and thereby don't need to track as hot. that means you won't need to use your compressor because you don't need to approach clipping in order to get a good sound on track. if you compress/limit during tracking, then your compression options during mastering are limited.

for vocals i dont limit. you can really hear it if the singer does hit the limit, and there raging whail instantly turns into a scrambled mess.

now that i've said that let me completely contradict myself. because i am paranoid of having a great track ruined i compress bass (4:1), guitar (electric 3:1, acoustic 2:1) and vocals (2:1) during tracking most of the time, but i set the threshold high so i don't squash the sound. i just tame it. all of the ratios i gave are total crap. they are the settings that i start with before i start tweaking. God only knows where the setting end up.

oh, let me also say that the more consistent the bass player is with his fingering, the less i compress it. i am a guitarist who lays his own bass tracks. i compress my own bass sound (especially for reggae/r&b) quite a bit. i feed a sansamp bass driver into the 1604 into an audio logic compressor into a frontier design tango24.

sean IzReal wright http://www.crosstudio.net
 
My understanding is that when you're recording digitally, you *do* need to track hot, because you're losing signal (not just volume) otherwise. Aside from that, I'd agree with the rest of what you're saying, especially about using it sparingly, but you have to remember I know almost nothing about this thing. :) I got the compressor because I was tired of having to chuck 2 out of 3 takes because of clipping.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dobro:
Hmm... So - limit when tracking to prevent clipping, and compress when mixing/mastering to fatten things up?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In general yes. Of course you have to judge by the case.
I use in some cases, limiting as a way to avoid digital clipping. You should always compare your limited track to the original one. Make sure there is no artifacts.

* If you want to reduce the peaks so the average level can be increased, use a limiter.
If you want to reduce a few peaks but keep most of the dynamics of your track, limit
Example - you bass player is playing with a good dynamics but then starts to slap and pop the strings and all of a sudden is blasting out? use a limiter

* If you want to have a consistant average level without crushing peaks, use the compressor.
Want to fatten tracks ? bring up quieter parts? use the compressor.

Again - less action from the compressor will always leave a clearer and more natural sound so always check original against compressed/limited.
But as another side line I doubt you have ever heard a commercial song that has not had a bit of compression on it
from tracking or mixing or mastering.

[This message has been edited by Shailat (edited 05-24-2000).]
 
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