Studio projects VTB1 mic pre-amp

I suppose you only get to record perfect voices, which is great for a clean pre, the colored ones add that 2nd harmonic that I prefer on vocals only. Thing only get muddy after you put on many layers of color.
 
DJL said:
You said Harvey gets free stuff from Alan for trying it out and reviewing it.

Harvey said that's not ture. Sorry chessrock, but I believe Harvey -- unless you can prove otherwise. Truth -- post the facts.

You know, you're right. I'll admit sometimes I make generalizations, and in the process I may tend to distort the facts. In the spirit of being factual, here goes . . .

Sticking to the facts:

Fact: Whether or not he may, in the end, purchase the product, Harvey and many others at least get free loaners on gear for review. I understand that, generally, reviewers are sent an invoice for the goods, although I'm not sure how strictly the companies supplying loaner gear are in terms of collecting on the goods.

It's also a known fact that special accomodations are made in terms of pricing for the review models, just as our friend Ozraves pointed out. Again, you can make your own judgements from there.

Fact: There are others who frequent this board who have also requested and received free "review models" of other goods -- again, as I understand, it is supposedly on a "loaner basis" as far as I can understand.

I don't know any more of the details involved, although I can make inferences . . . which are, again inferences not based on actual factual knowlege . . . so I'm leaving it up to you to make your own conclusions.

Fact: Harvey is friends with a very tight-knit group of folks in the AE, design, sales and manufacturing community of pro audio goods. This group includes the likes of Fletcher, Stephen Paul, Mark McQuilkin, Mr. Neve himself, Alan Hyatt (indirectly though association with Stephen Paul) and many others.

It is also a fact that I can't find any negative reviews or comments regarding the gear his friends manufacture and/or market.

Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not. But do I think it's a natural human tendency to want to see our friends and acquaintances succeed, and thus have subconscious biases? Of course. You could make the greatest product on the planet, but if your mother is the one posting the review, I might tend to believe there could be some subcounscious bias. :D Even if she was being totally honest.

So again, getting back to the facts, I have nothing more to add to it. Havey is either personal friends or acquaintances with a lot of those who manufacture the gear he comments on. You draw your own conclusions. I have mine, and I happen to believe he truly likes the products, but I take it with a small grain, knowing his personal ties and connections.

That's not based on facts, but my own opinions. I apologize if any of my statements regarding this matter were slanderous in any way, as that was not their intent.

Fact : Harvey has very little (if any) direct experience with most of the gear that competes directly with the VTB-1. He has freely admitted this in the past, and will continue to admit he has very little time or interest to be messing around with all the bottom-feeder preamps like the Tube MP, DMP3, Joemeek VC3, Mindprint, etc.

. . . Unless something's changed that I'm unaware of.

He's also stated that it's not in the same league as the RNP.

These are some pretty important facts. Again, I have opinions on this; and I wonder how someone can truly make an informed judgement of a product without evaluating direct competitors in it's price range.

Again, I am going to look at the facts and draw my own inferences. Some of you might have a problem with them, but that's what makes life interesting -- different opinions and points of view are good. Some of you seem to think it's bad. Some of you, frankly, remind me of the townspeople from Arthur Miller's "The Crucible." A play called "The Lottery" also comes to mind. :D Personally, I feel sorry for the horded masses who all feel the need to conform to the same opinions and sets of standards; and view those who's opinions differ as being renegades, radicals, or just plain neussances.

But that's fine if it works for you. Have fun with it and make it work for you if that's what gets you off. You don't need me to be your Holden Caulfield.
 
On the other hand Harvey has had a great deal of experience with
mic pre's to compare a VTB-1 (or anything else) to.

Chris
 
chessparov said:
On the other hand Harvey has had a great deal of experience with mic pre's to compare a VTB-1 (or anything else) to.

Chris

Alright, Chess. Name a few in the $200 and under price range. I don't care if he's comparing the quality of a $200 toy to those on his Great River or his MCI console. That doesn't mean a whole lot to me.
 
chessrock,

Originally posted by DJL
You said Harvey gets free stuff from Alan for trying it out and reviewing it.

Harvey said that's not ture. Sorry chessrock, but I believe Harvey -- unless you can prove otherwise. Truth -- post the facts.

chessrock said:
You know, you're right. I'll admit sometimes I make generalizations, and in the process I may tend to distort the facts. In the spirit of being factual, here goes . . .

<snip>


Fact: You lied about Alan giving Harvey stuff for trying it out and reviewing it.

Fact: I think you owe Harvey an apology.

Truth.
 
Last edited:
DJL said:
Fact: I think you owe Harvey an apology.

I think you need to re-read my last post. Particularly the part that goes something like: "I apologize if any of my statements regarding this matter were slanderous in any way, as that was not their intent."

Another fact: Alan shipped Harvey just about every one of the SP mic line. Harvey has had them on loan for almost a year now, and hasn't paid for any of them (and admittedly doesn't know what the price will be). Do you think that at least constitutes as a free rental of merch? It's been almost a year. Just curious.

Interperate that however you want -- I'm merely stating the facts and asking a question. And no, I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all. Alan can go ahead and send stuff to whomever he wants on whatever terms he wants. And I don't think Harvey has denied any of it, because again, he's only guilty of getting some loaners that I don't believe he even requested in the first place. Hell, I'd be happy as a clam if he sent stuff my way, as any of us would. :D
 
Last edited:
chessrock,

You said "Harvey gets free stuff from Alan for trying it out and reviewing it.". When I asked you what Alan gave Harvey free for for trying it out and reviewing it -- you never answered the question. Period. Instead you wrote a short book about Harvey's friends and me not knowing the truth and some other crap. But, I'll remember you told me "I'll admit sometimes I make generalizations, and in the process I may tend to distort the facts." when I read your post in the future. Anyway, I'm back to eating popcorn and reading the threads. Later.
 
Last edited:
Hmmm.... for a while there I thought maybe it was me, but i don't see how anyone can blame me for this one...

Free at last... free at last...!
 
DJL said:
You said "Harvey gets free stuff from Alan for trying it out and reviewing it.". When I asked you what Alan gave Harvey free for for trying it out and reviewing it -- you never answered the question.

Sorry if I haven't made myself clear. In June of last year, Alan sent one of every mic Studio Projects had made up to that time. What Harvey has received is free usage of these mics for the past 10 months and counting.

I was innacurate for implying that these mics were simply given to Harvey for free -- When in fact they were merely loaned to him indefinitely . . . and without any payment terms. My bad. Guess I should get my facts straight next time, DJL. ;)

I would like to reiterate, again, that I don't see anything wrong with Alan sending them, and certainly nothing wrong with Harvey accepting them for this rather generous trial period. I also apologize if I've implied that this affects Harvey's objectivity. I just happen to have my own beliefs about human nature, so I've chosen to take those factors in to at least partial consideration when judging someone's comments abouit a product. That's all.
 
chessrock said:
I just happen to have my own beliefs about human nature, so I've chosen to take those factors in to at least partial consideration when judging someone's comments abouit a product. That's all.

RIGHT! But you seem to imply, actually, to hell with "imply" because of your posts in this thread, you seem to think that out of those involved in this thread (at the very least), you're the only one who recognizes that we're discussing a personally subjective subject here and that human nature (which includes infinite issues in itself) is involved when it comes to "reviews"... In fact, you even comment on how I've never bothered to look at reality, but what you're really talking about is YOUR narrow "reality" that you've laid-down here.

You make EXTREMELY generalized comments on damn-near everything on this BBS, people disagree and question you on it KNOWING very damn-well there IS truth in it, except you fail to bring-up MANY other factors to consider AND to let be known. You then seem to have no idea WHY and then decide to actually mention the truth in your extremely generalized statements and act as though we don't see or even know, let alone know of, the truth in them!

We're glad that YOU finally mention the truth in your general statements and wish you would have taken the time to write and include your explanation(s) of your comments in the first place. However, you STILL seem to fail at recognizing and acknowledging that there are SO MANY other factors to bring-up and even MUCH MORE that we'll NEVER hit-on here!

I find your points of view black and white due to you being WAY too narrow-minded and even just a tiny bit too confident in yourself, as well as in your convictions. I FULLY accept it if that is YOUR human nature, but I DO and WILL question your EXTREMELY generalized comments, bring-in other considerations I might think of off the top of my head, and let it be known that while your comments are encouraged and appreciated, I personally find MOST of them (particularly of late) NOT what is USUALLY commonly and generally agreed upon among those in our industry. So DO and so WILL many others around here!
 
Last edited:
Look, RE.

I just say what I say. I make generalizations just like everyone else does . . . in order to simplify the points I try to make.

Smaller morsels seem to be easier for people to bite off and chew on, for the most part; That's also human nature. I suppose I could get in to all of the tiny, interweaving complexities that might be involved -- all the way down to what a particular reviewer might have had to eat the morning they made a comment on some toob mic pre.

So I try to present an idea / concept that hasn't yet been touched on, or isn't "generally accepted" in whatever community it is you're refering to (assholes who like to record things and post on web sites about it? :D -- Yea, I'm one of them. Guilty as charged!). And I try and get down to the point as best I can.

Then a bunch of guys start freaking out . . . calling me a liar, hurling insults and retaliatory remarks. Far beyond "disagreeing or questioning" as you put it. Which forces me write enormously long-winded novels, trying to explain myself and thus drag up all of the various boring complexities involved. Boring people to tears with the matter and eventually beating an already tedius subject to death.

(And there's a bit of human nature to that, also).

. . . When all one has to do to prevent this big, ugly car wreck is just look at my comment and say something ike "Interesting," . . . or "That's just Chess," and move on.
 
chessrock said:
Sorry if I haven't made myself clear. In June of last year, Alan sent one of every mic Studio Projects had made up to that time. What Harvey has received is free usage of these mics for the past 10 months and counting.

Yes, we've had them here that long, but they've been sitting in their boxes, waiting till I had the time to test them. They weren't being used. After the tests, I think Alex has used the B3 a couple of times on guitar cabinets, but the rest aren't being used, and haven't been used in our recording sessions. The mics we use are listed on the equipment page at our website.

I was innacurate for implying that these mics were simply given to Harvey for free -- When in fact they were merely loaned to him indefinitely . . . and without any payment terms. My bad. Guess I should get my facts straight next time, DJL. ;)

The mics weren't loaned to me "indefinitely, or without payment terms" - both were spelled out quite clearly by Studio Projects when I first received the mics, and Alan has asked me to return the ones I don't want, and to pay for the ones I do want.

The fact that I can't find my initial test notes has delayed the process, and Alan has been very forgiving in not pressing the return issue. And the mics are all back in their boxes, where they've been since the tests.

I've asked Alan for more time because I want to repeat the tests to be fair to Alan, since the first B1 we received didn't work, and I need to compare the B1 to the other SP models, and to some of the other manufacturer's mics, to give people a proper basis for comparison.

The payment terms (as per the invoice I received with the mics) are pretty simple: I pay full suggested retail.


I would like to reiterate, again, that I don't see anything wrong with Alan sending them, and certainly nothing wrong with Harvey accepting them for this rather generous trial period.

Let me set this straight, once and for all time: Alan called me and asked me to evaluate his mics, because he apparently trusted and respected my judgement. I didn't call Alan and ask to test his stuff. It wasn't a "trial period" - it was a test, plain and simple. And I told Alan up front, I'm slow to test this stuff and it might take some time, and Alan was fine with that.

The way I test mics requires two people, and Alex and I have been working our asses off in the studio 6 and 7 days a week, recording groups, which is what we do for a living.

After a 12 hour session, both our brains are too fried to try to evaluate subtle mic nuances. Finding the time to set up and test 10 different mics at one sitting is an imposing task, not to be taken lightly.

We test for noise, level matching, polarity, pattern control, proximity effect, air blast sensitivity, distortion, and tonal color. I'm in the room with all the mics, listening over headphones, while Alex is in the control room listening over the large speakers. We compare every mic to other similar mics and to our TLM103, which is our control mic.

We take frequent breaks to keep our ears fresh, and we often go back and repeat tests to see if we get the same results, to avoid the possibility of personal bias in our tests. We do all this shit for free, but yes, sometimes we find something that we want to use for the studio.

In the next few weeks, I'm getting the new AEA R84 ribbon mic in from Wes Dooley at Audio Engineering Associates, which I'll be testing. But it won't be on loan to me - I'll be paying full price for it, in front, because I already feel that it will be a useful addition to the studio. If not, I'll send it back to Wes.


I also apologize if I've implied that this affects Harvey's objectivity. I just happen to have my own beliefs about human nature, so I've chosen to take those factors in to at least partial consideration when judging someone's comments about a product. That's all.

Chessrock, I can't change your opinion about my "objectivity", or the factors you use to "weight" my comments. All I can suggest is that you look at some of the comments I've made in the past about the various mic evaluations I've made, and judge for yourself if I've whitewashed the whole line, or if I've pointed out specific models in every mic line I've tested that had some problems.

Alan Hyatt and I have tangled publicly in the past on this board, big time. Those posts are a matter of record and a search will easily find them. I've challenged some of Alan's assertions many times and we've had some heated discussions here in the past.

In my very first post recommending the ECM8000, I also included a warning about the noise problems inherent in all very small diaphragm condenser mics. At the time, I hadn't even heard the ECM8000 mics yet. The recommendation (and the warning) were based on my experience and knowledge of how small omnis work, as a class of mics.

So, did I ask Behringer to "loan" or "give me" some mics to test? No, I've NEVER talked to anybody at Behringer, or any of their representatives. I bought a pair from 8th Street Music over the phone, exactly like many of you have, at full price.
 
Look Harvey, no need to drag up every little detail on this. I'm already aware of just about everything you mentioned. Some of it is common knowlege to those who have posted here for a while -- and some of it is known to a lucky few of us who have been opportunistic enough to read and follow your comments and pay careful attention as I and a few others have.

This has gotten way more complicated than it should have. Bottom line is I read your comments. Some of them have been spot-on in my book (like the mxl 603, mc012, dbx 242, RNP -- do you want me to print the entire list?), thank you. A few I don't agree with, and others I think you've been extremely honest and helpful about, like the Behringer reference mics.

I understand and respect your expertise, and I appreciate your contributions. I do not, however, think you are without flaw . . . nor do I automatically take all of your comments as law (Harvey said it's great, so it must be great!) without considering other factors or evaluating it myself first-hand.

Imagine that. A guy who I think says a lot of great things . . . a few not-so-great . . . and some in-between. Some I agree with and others I don't. Sounds like just about every person I know.

Do you not think that's fair?
 
Yup, that is absolutely fair, and I have no problems whatsoever with that.

The problems were with the "indefinite trial loan, no payment terms, bias in my testing", and the implications that I was beholding to the manufacturers that I've commented on.

I've been damned hard on Alan Hyatt here and I think it's helped make him more responsive to his customers. I know I've helped Alan off the record in many ways to improve and expand his business.

But Alan knows I won't cut him an inch of slack when it comes to testing his mics, and he's fine with that. Same with the guys at MXL, and it's the same with Mark McQuilken at FMR Audio, to name just a few.

I don't ask anyone here to agree with my findings about a product. If people find my comments useful and they find my comments consistent with their own findings, that's great. If not, that's okay too.

It's the other shit you implied that pissed me off. It's just not true. I didn't ask Alan to give me this stuff for an "indefinite trial period" so I could have the "free use of all the mics". Alan asked me to test them.

Except for the couple of times Alex used the B3 (and during the actual testing), all the mics have been sitting in their cases since we got them in. Alan has asked for them back, and I will pay for any I keep.

Until I test them again, or buy them, they will remain in their cases.

Sure, I'm not without flaws, in many areas. I'm glad my comments have been of some help to your decision making, but I don't expect that everything I recommend is going to be the perfect choice for every situation. I can live with that.

I just don't like the implication that I'm doing this stuff to get free use of the gear, or that I'm somehow trying to garner favor with manufacturers by giving them good reviews.

Hell, dbx doesn't mention the 242 anywhere on their website. Even Tom Cram at dbx first learned about the damn thing from reading my comments about it.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
It's the other shit you implied that pissed me off. It's just not true. I didn't ask Alan to give me this stuff for an "indefinite trial period" so I could have the "free use of all the mics". Alan asked me to test them.

I know you didn't request them, and I don't fault you for accepting. them. It's interesting to note that you haven't been using them -- I guess that's another factor I'll take in to consideration when evaluating the SP line. :D <--- smiley - not serious.

I just don't like the implication that I'm doing this stuff to get free use of the gear, or that I'm somehow trying to garner favor with manufacturers by giving them good reviews.


I don't know that that was ever implied. All I said was that I think it's human nature to be influenced, even subconsciously, when people let us borrow their stuff for long periods of time. And if it pisses you off that I have a basic assumption about human nature that I'm not holding you above, then I'm sorry.

But you've made your case, and it's a very good one. Obviously, not everyone feels the way I do. Some people think you walk on water. I just think you're a smart dude.

And whether or not the merch was used, it's been available to you (for the past 10 months), and you were the one who mentioned not knowing how much you would be charged -- that wasn't my implication.


Hell, dbx doesn't mention the 242 anywhere on their website. Even Tom Cram at dbx first learned about the damn thing from reading my comments about it.

I learned about it originally from Bob Orban. The fact that you had experience with it and liked it, which I later learned from poking around on RAP, only served to reinforce my already-high opinion of it.
 
Actually, holding the stuff here for a long period of time is one of my flaws and failings; it's not a positive attribute, in my opinion. It means that I'm responsible for maintaining and storing equipment that doesn't belong to me.

As far as not using them all the time I've had them, I don't use the stuff I'm testing for my personal use while it's here. It's one of my character quirks - call it a fear of possible bias on my part if I were to use it that way.

Alex is less formal about his testing - he wants to try it in a series of different situations before he makes final judgements. I tend to go with a single test, relying on my first impressions. Sometimes I'll go back and relisten to something, to confirm or change an earlier impression.

Between his methods and mine, I think we strike a happy balance which is pretty close to an accurate evaluation.

But all the time we have something here, I just wanna get it out of my hair as soon as possible, since it isn't mine, and I feel responsible for it while it's here. Our recording schedules (Alex's and mine) don't coincide very often, so we don't have many windows of opportunity where we're both free to conduct tests, hence the long times till we can test something.

I had the new Speck 5.0 mic preamp here recently, but after a few months, Vince asked me to return it and I never had the chance to hear it, or even take it out of the box.

Having a product here to test and keeping it for a long time is not a plus for me, it's a personal failing. And I've apologized to Alan many times about how slow I've been in getting my comments out, and how long I've hung on to the equipment.

Other than that, I have no problem with any of your other remarks.
 
There are two factors particulary related to home recording that need to
be emphathized IMHO. A product like the VTB-1 especially fits our market
niche for what it DOESN'T do-meaning when you crank up the gain you
don't hear the kind of hiss you'll get with Mackie VLZ Pro's or an Audio
Buddy at full gain. Secondly, waxing poetically about a pre's nuances,
while recording someone who's singing makes Bob Dylan sound like one
of the Three Tenors, is a rather amusing reality facet of all this analysis.

We (yeah me too!) get all worked up on this stuff, and the reality is if
we paid as much attention to improving the quality of the musical source
material, and how to better use microphone placement, there would be
more tangible improvement. To steal a quote from a great audio engineer,
"A well placed SM57 will beat a poorly placed (Telefunken Elam) 251
every time".

Chessrock, if someone like Harvey says a pre is quiet, they don't need
to line up other budget pre's-it's either quiet or NOT, just to make an
easy example.

Chris
 
Back
Top