The Only Rack Equipment I'll Use from now on

M

MadMax

New member
is a preamp. The plug ins have just become too good to not use. In the end, nobody is EVER going to ask me what kind of compressor/EQ/Delay/Reverb/etc. I used on that song.
 
I almost agree, it is really nice to have an outboard high-end compressor for tracking to disk. I also really like my old analog tape echo unit. Other than pre's and comp's, unless you can find some really unique cool (usually old) gear, plug-ins are the way to go.
 
Why does it matter if someone is going to ask about it? Do you set your own standards, or do you let others set them for you?

Not trying to be confrontational, but I just don't believe in the concept of "nobody will ever notice". In the first place, it doesn't matter because if you notice then that's what's important. In the second place, they will notice if something is compromised, but may not be able to put it into words or know exactly what it is they are feeling.

Have you noticed how record companies are simply falling off the map these days? Sales are dropping by all measurements. That's a good indicator that people are noticing *something* anyway.

The most important thing is that you set and meet your own standards. If plugins do it for you, then that's your choice. If hardware does it, or any combination of the above, then that's your choice too. I use boths plugins and hardware myself.

But what I don't do is let others set my standards for me. Which is why I am wary of the "it's good enough, nobody will notice" approach.
 
SonicAlbert said:
Why does it matter if someone is going to ask about it? Do you set your own standards, or do you let others set them for you?

Not trying to be confrontational, but I just don't believe in the concept of "nobody will ever notice". In the first place, it doesn't matter because if you notice then that's what's important. In the second place, they will notice if something is compromised, but may not be able to put it into words or know exactly what it is they are feeling.

Have you noticed how record companies are simply falling off the map these days? Sales are dropping by all measurements. That's a good indicator that people are noticing *something* anyway.

The most important thing is that you set and meet your own standards. If plugins do it for you, then that's your choice. If hardware does it, or any combination of the above, then that's your choice too. I use boths plugins and hardware myself.

But what I don't do is let others set my standards for me. Which is why I am wary of the "it's good enough, nobody will notice" approach.
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I HAVE let others set my standards for me to a certain extent. But I need to move on and get back to the music, not obsess over gear. I'm never going to spend $2000 on a hardware compressor. The UA plugs do a really good job for me and I believe they sound world class enough for any studio on any level. They've gotten to a point where they may not sound the same as the hardware they're modelled after, but they're in the same league. And modern music (I speak of Pop & Rock) is built around digital recording anyway. I don't record classical or anything sparse enough where you'll hear the subtleties anyway.
 
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I have NEVER heard a plugin compressor that sounds like the real thing, so I emphatically cannot agree with you there. A LA-3A plugin can't even come close. Same with good eqs, they don't sound the same. A/B a real pultec to the best plugin and it's obvious which is the real thing. I've tried to come up with the magic plugins to replace the expense of the real thing to no avail.

Also, music sales are up, not down. Record labels aren't selling as many albums, but electronic copies aren't counted towards that number. I agree that some labels haven't adapted well to the new trends, but not the majority.
 
Actually, I read that last year total sales went down for the first time, including downloads. Before last year, downloads had made up the difference from dropping CD sales. I wish I could remember where I read that, I think it was the Los Angeles Times.
 
Blue Groove said:
I have NEVER heard a plugin compressor that sounds like the real thing
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Neither have I. But can you honestly say that the real thing sounds better ?
The UA plugs are getting a lot of work in some pretty well respected studios nowadays.

This is the same battle the audiophiles had when CD's first came out. But technology got better and digital recordings and conversion sounded better and except for a few holdouts, the war is over.
I'm not trying to start an arguement, I've just decided to embrace the inevitable.
 
There are still very few plugins that can approach the quality of hardware, particularily when it comes to the simple beauty of tone. This is something that plugins just don't do very well. Plugins can eq, compress, delay, modulate, etc., but they don't *add* something magical like great hardware can.

The ease of recall and automation on plugins though is obviously far superior to analog hardware. That's an important factor for a lot of people. I feel that in many cases engineers know plugins don't sound as good but make the compromise because of the ease of recall. Open the file and it's all right where you left it--that's seductive.

But as far as tone, there isn't a plugin that can match good hardware. When you accept the inevitable, you better accept that too.
 
MadMax said:
This is the same battle the audiophiles had when CD's first came out. But technology got better and digital recordings and conversion sounded better and except for a few holdouts, the war is over.
I'm not trying to start an arguement, I've just decided to embrace the inevitable.
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Sure, consumers have embraced the CD (and now downloads) because it offers certain benefits that vinyl and tape do not, but one of them is not necessarily sound quality.

Same thing with this argument: " But can you honestly say that the real thing sounds better ? The UA plugs are getting a lot of work in some pretty well respected studios nowadays." you are implying that the reason studios use them is because they "sound good" but I would be willing to bet recallability, multiple instances, automation, etc, etc, etc. are the real reason.

Edit: Albert beat me to it.

one thing though is that the studios wouldn't use them if they totally sounded like ass, I'll give you that. So they probably dont sound like total ass. But if you are willing to work harder and have fewer "options" I think outboard sounds better.
 
FALKEN said:
duuuude....have you ever heard a mix off tape?? or compared a cd to the vinyl version? Sure, consumers have embraced the CD (and now downloads) because it offers certain benefits that vinyl and tape do not, but one of them is not sound quality.

Same thing with this argument: " But can you honestly say that the real thing sounds better ? The UA plugs are getting a lot of work in some pretty well respected studios nowadays." you are implying that the reason studios use them is because they "sound good" but I would be willing to bet recallability, multiple instances, automation, etc, etc, etc. are the real reason.

Edit: Albert beat me to it.
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Sure, I've been around and I've heard some great studio masters right off of the 2" and the mix deck. And they sound awesome thru the studio monitors. But so do the PT mixes thru the same monitors. And on my humble little Sonar rig, there's a huge "smile factor" when I use the UA 1176, La2a, & Pultec plugs over the Sonitus and Waves plugs. I'd love to hear some of those old PT mixes with UA Plugs.
The convenience of digital is no doubt going to be the death of analog, but you still didn't answer my question; "does the real thing sound better or just different?"
But I'll bet if I went to Full Sail and got to play with all that stuff, I'd be jaded. But I don't know any better. I've never used the real thing.

OOps! You edited while I was posting...carry on. Well there you go, I don't want to work harder and have fewer options. :D
 
fwiw, i'd take a UA 1176 or LA2A over a plugin anyday. not because its necessarily better- but it gives me confidence and pride in my work to use expensive gear that i can touch physically.
 
Speaking of the smile factor, Mark Linnett used the UAD Pultec plug on "Brian Wilson Presents Smile". They also used hardware Fairchilds and UA pres.

Bottom line is if you have the hardware, great, but if you don't, the digital stuff is good enough that there are no excuses if your mix sounds like poo.
 
TragikRemix said:
fwiw, i'd take a UA 1176 or LA2A over a plugin anyday. not because its necessarily better- but it gives me confidence and pride in my work to use expensive gear that i can touch physically.
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That just make NO sense at all!
 
To each his own.

I would almost agree completely if I didn't like the sound of my hardware mixes so much. I don't mix analog all the time- usually only final products or for fun, or when I'm using the tape deck, of course- but for me the convenience of the plugs hasn't yet won me over from the *feel* and sound of the hardware.

I suppose its more the mixer that I love, along with the FMR compressors and the classy sounding M2000 reverb, oh and the sweet EQ's that you can boost with and still sound good...

Nothing in the box ever sounds quite as wide as an analog mix. I have no idea why, but my ears and the ears of those around me have confirmed it many times over. For that reason alone I'll do my final prints sub-mixed through the board. Another trip through the convertors be damned- it still sounds better to me.

But, yeah, when I'm tracking and arranging the board is only on for preamps, monitor control and artist monitor mixes. Even when I'm analog mixing I'll use plugs where appropriate. I don't have the slightest problem with them.

But I'm not selling off the hardware anytime soon. :)

-C
 
I like my "Analog Tube" plugin. I apply to all my digital recordings because it makes things "Warm".
This way - I never have take a single side in the digital vs. analog argument - because I have the best of both worlds.

I also like my "Neumann U87" plugin. I use it to make my MXL 990 sound awesome!!!! And then I add some "Analog Tube" plugin warmth to it....and BAM.....I kicked it up a notch.
 
SonicAlbert said:
Actually, I read that last year total sales went down for the first time, including downloads. Before last year, downloads had made up the difference from dropping CD sales. I wish I could remember where I read that, I think it was the Los Angeles Times.
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They have gone down a lot, I believe that the advantage of having one plug-in that you can apply to every track, be it comp, verb, or anything else allows you to spend more money on pre's converters, etc.

With an unlimited budget it would be great to have both, but if you cannot afford to get the high quality rack pieces, Plug-ins have made leaps and bounds. Sure there are some crappy one's out their but REQ, RComp, Altiverb, L3, Cedar restoration pack. You will have a hard time convincing me that those plug-ins are vastly inferior to their relative hardware. You will also have a hard time convincing me that the money saved and availability to use them limitlessly, (or at least what ever your box can handle) is not a powerful argument for plug-ins for the home studio.

I also think a huge part of the drop in sales is clearly say, songwriting? :)
 
MadMax said:
I've never used the real thing.
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That reality is not lost on me when I read what you are saying! I have used most of the "real things" in audio, and have used every big time plugin there is. There really is no comparison!

Until you have drove the fuck out of a vocal through a 1176 (hardware) you have not lived life! ;)
 
gbondo9 said:
I like my "Analog Tube" plugin. I apply to all my digital recordings because it makes things "Warm".
This way - I never have take a single side in the digital vs. analog argument - because I have the best of both worlds.

I also like my "Neumann U87" plugin. I use it to make my MXL 990 sound awesome!!!! And then I add some "Analog Tube" plugin warmth to it....and BAM.....I kicked it up a notch.
Click to expand...

This makes my brain hurt, sorry.
 
Just like Ford Van, I kind of new right away that you had never used the real stuff. I agree that plugins have come a long way in the last few years. Some have started to capture "some" of the characteristics of the real thing. There is still a pretty big difference though. Analog in general isn't going anywhere. There are more outboard units being made now than ever before. As far as their being a Neumann U87 plugin... this is just silly. I have heard the MXL 990 and there is no way you could make it sound even close to an original U87. The universal audio UAD comps sound great to me, but the real deal is still a pretty big difference. There are still a lot of things that the plugins just do not do. To blindly be satisfied with plugins for any reason besides budget is just accepting that your own skills are and will always be limited.
 
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