The Only Rack Equipment I'll Use from now on

One mistake I see people making in this thread over and over is talking about money in regards to the plugin vs. hardware debate. That just clouds the issue. What's at issue is not that you get more instances of an 1176 plugin for cheaper than buying the hardware. When you talk about comparisons you have to talk about the sound, and the sound alone. Money has no place in that discussion.

If it *all cost the same*, and you did a plugins versus hardware comparison, I don't think there'd be any discussion here about which sounded better.
 
bigwillz24 said:
Actually arma I may be in a position to do that but not on a full mix maybe a vocal track or something. I have access to the 1176 plug and the real deal 1176 as well as the SSL 4000 plugs and the real deal.

Hmm... maybe I could do a mix of a simple song using just the SSL plugs then take it to school pull up the same settings on the boards and see what we come up with.

In my experience you can't just duplicate the settings between plugins and hardware. Each responds so differently that you have to create different settings for them, even if to get somewhat the same result.

Other than that, I think you experiment sounds like a great idea!
 
Let me ask the guy if I can post some of his work here before I get too far ahead of myself. I got some simple guitar vocal only songs here that may work great as an example. But I need permission to post them first.
 
SonicAlbert said:
If it *all cost the same*, and you did a plugins versus hardware comparison, I don't think there'd be any discussion here about which sounded better.

That's what I'm not so sure about. Since "what sounds better" is SO subjective, I don't think anybody can honestly say the hardware sounds better. Maybe to the ear that's been trained on the analog stuff, the plugs don't sound the same, but I don't think the superlatives better or worse belong in this conversation.
 
I understand some of the argument here, but I see a definitive flaw. Max has never used the real stuff so in no way should be making such statements. I have no problem with a lot of the current plugin sets but to rule out the hardware is just silly. Not only that, but in the context of this thread it is also unfounded. I have a bunch of plugin comps and a bunch of vintage hardware comps. There are definate sonic differences that almost always sound better on the hardware comps. The same goes with EQ's. My console EQ still sounds better to me and all of my clients than any of the software ones including the URS, UAD and the Waves SSL ones. All three of those sets have some good stuff in them, but they are very different. Software compressors for instance just don't come close to reproducing that thickness and saturation and pumping sound that a good hardware comp does. Software also does not seem to do extreme gain reduction as transparently as a lot of the nice hardware comps go. Personally, Maxes arguments seem extremely uneducated and are 100% based on a lack of actual experience. Outboard equipment isn't going anywhere. I understand that many studios have augented their systems with plenty of digital alternatives, but most capable studios also have racks full of outboard equipment as well. Not just racks full, but racks that are continually expanding. Outboard hardware has never been so redily available as it is currently and most of those companies are seeing increased sales and not decreased ones.

As an engineer I take pride in my work. The general public may not care what comp or EQ you used, but any professional with any pride and care in the work does pay attention to some of those details. From experience I can tell you that many musicians and engineers have certain hardware combinations that they like and prefer. From mics to preamps to compressors to EQ's people have preferences and combinations that they like. I get clients like that all the time. I have NEVER had a client or even dealt with other engineers and producers and musicians that do not care about the outboard and have a software only combination that floats their boat, at least not when compared to having solid outboard combinations available.

I do understand that what is "better" is certainly subjective. I also know that many albums are done on DAWS these days. Look at the majority of the great recordings released though and you will find one thing in common. Diversity. The ability to use the best tools for the job is what contributes to those great albums. The ability to decide when to use the software available and when to use the hardware available. It is also to remember that just because Pro Tools was used to do an album that does not mean that there weren't racks full of outboard gear used in the project as well. Max seems to be making some pretty broad assumptions about things he knows nothing about. As far as noone asking what gear was used, as an engineer I get questions like that all the time. When people who care hear something they like they are often interested. When you work professionally in this industry you get those questions all the time.

Subjective or not, I know many people who almost always find that the hardware just plain old sounds better. None of this is meant to belittle software, but I choose to call something what it is. Software is a tool to be used. Hardware is a tool to be used. In my experience a solid hardware stock just sounds better most of the time. That does not mean the software does not get used, but the hardware almost always finds its way into a project as often as possible.

Maybe you shouldn't think as much about whether or not people will ask you what comp or EQ etc... you used. Maybe you should just focus making good music. I don't really want people asking me what EQ I used. What I prefer is when someone comes up and says "Wow, how did you get the huge drum sound". Most recordings that inspire this kind of question were done with care and proper decisions (although sometimes you do just get lucky". Most of the people getting those responses try to use the best tools available to them and use them correctly. I would imagine that most all succesful working engineers prefer the "hardware" sound. Even the ones that don't have the hardware. If they have used it before they will probably tell you how much better it sounds. Most people that I know that try and just blindly write off quality equipment are just trying to cover up their own equipment shortcomings and justify not having to put any money into their setup.
 
Hmmmm,

I find it odd that every person that has never used a good hardware comp is saying, the plugs are different, but just as good. Every person that has used a good hardware comp says they flat out sound better. Xstatic has a good point - How the hell can you say they sound as good if you have never used a good hardware comp?

I use the uad comps all the time. They do sound pretty good. Do they sound as good as an MC77? No. Not even close. However, they are much easier, and much faster to use, and certainly won't "ruin" a mix - and are great for recall. So I do use them. I wish I had a rack full of great comps, and no plugins, but funds are not unlimited, so I have to compromise.

edit - and, nobody ever asks which comp was used, but as Xstatic said, I do get - "wow, how did you get the drums to sound like that?" or vox, or......
 
I think people have very different ideas of what an "obvious" difference is supposed to sound like.

I think for most off-the-street laypeople, the differences we're talking about aren't obvious at all.

Let's also factor in the sheer fanboi-ism of someone who shells out 3-4k on a compressor - they are going to mentally defend that purchase to the death.

We see the same thing with vintage guitar/amp folks, where there is a "world" of difference in tone between this year/manufacturing process and that year/manufacturing process.

The reality is somewhere in between.
 
MadMax said:
That's what I'm not so sure about. Since "what sounds better" is SO subjective, I don't think anybody can honestly say the hardware sounds better. Maybe to the ear that's been trained on the analog stuff, the plugs don't sound the same, but I don't think the superlatives better or worse belong in this conversation.

That's just it: the terms "better of worse" DO belong in this conversation. This is the whole conversation, exactly what we are talking about.

It's not so subjective that you can't hear the difference. In many cases the difference is startling, and it has nothing to do with a trained ear.

I use both plugins and some really nice hardware. I love both, in different ways. Outboard hardware *adds* it's own mojo and tone to the track, whereas plugins just process whatever is there. When it comes to compression I don't think any plugin really does what a good hardware unit can. Same with chorus, there's nothing in the digital world like my analog TC 1210.
 
Supercreep said:
Let's also factor in the sheer fanboi-ism of someone who shells out 3-4k on a compressor - they are going to mentally defend that purchase to the death.

This is a good point, as people will often want to justify their purchases. But the same applies those who purchase plugins.

There are people here who think $300 for a plugin is highway robbery. So for them to spend $150 on a plug is the same as someone else spending $3,000 on hardware. Both might feel the need to justify their purchases to themselves and to others, so that argument cuts both ways.

I use both plugins and hardware, and I try to get the best out of both. But I don't delude myself: hardware does indeed sound better. You really have to set aside the issue of cost, or how many instances you can run of a plug. Those are totally beside the main issue.
 
Supercreep said:
Let's also factor in the sheer fanboi-ism of someone who shells out 3-4k on a compressor - they are going to mentally defend that purchase to the death.


There is some truth to this as well. However, I myself have bought several pieces of gear that were very high end, and I did NOT like them. I had a u89 for instance. Just didn't hear the greatness of it. Still not in love with the distressor either.
 
I never said the plugs sound just as good as the hardware. In fact, I asked the question.
I also said that there will come a day when hardware will go the way of vinyl and I stick with that statement.
My only challenge was for someone who has both to post some examples so we can hear how much better the hardware sounds. Heck, if I like it, I just might buy a 1176.
 
The magic that analogue delivers is harmonic distortion... from passing the signal (still in it's analogue form) through multiple components and combinations of frequency... enhanced by amplication, which adds addition harmonics.

For example: Any time you combine two frequencies the result is additive and subtractive. Adding frequencies A & B would result in (A) & (B) & (A+B) & (A-B). Of course the harmonics of the original two frequencies are significantly lower in amplitude than the originals.

Add another frequency and here’s what you get: (A) & (B) & (C) & (A+B) & (A+C) & (B+C) & (A-B) & (A-C) & (B-C) & (A+B+C) & (A+B-C) & (A-B+C) & (A-C+B)… well you get the picture… and that’s just three distinct frequencies.

A good digital plug-in is designed to recreate all of these subtle interactions, but there are just too many to capture in an algorithm that will run without latency, so they have to compromise...

A plug-in will never exactly duplicate the output of the hardware device it emulates...
 
....

Somebody finally mentioned it...electronic harmonic distortion.

My Electrical Engineer/Programmer and I looked into doing it for our company (we are starting a boutique audio company) We could build a close duplicate, but you would have to buy a $7500 Mac to run it. The RAM requirement (about 7.5 GHz of ECC) for it would exceed the Ram capabilities of a PC. It would run one copy.

Then you'd pay another $2000-$3000 for the plugin (the programming is very complicated, and would cost a fortune)

I'd rather own several of the real deal for that price.
 
I think the plugs have just as much (actually more, kuz they're digital) headroom

yea, but it seems like the magic of a lot of outboard stuff comes from the headroom being eaten up

do that in digital land, and you get shitty clipping
 
amra said:
The question that needs to be asked in this Outboard Vs. Plugin debate, is this:

To the average home recorder or small studio, is a $2500 piece of hardware going to make any given recording sound $2000 better than a $500 plugin?

and

Are there other places a home recordist or smaller studio could put that $2000, to make a greater sonic impact?

Let's also not forget that to maximize use of outboard compressor, you would need D/A/D to match. Even though I've seen people select technically inferior conversion in a blind test, I've never seen anybody argue in favor of it.
 
I can understand people wanting to justify their purchase. There are people out there who buy something expensive because they heard it was good and really don't know. There are also people out there who have decided that the advantages that the outboard hardware offers is WORTH the money it costs. I would not consider those types of arguments justification. I would consider them to be intelligent and meaningful opinions.
 
MadMax said:
is a preamp. The plug ins have just become too good to not use. In the end, nobody is EVER going to ask me what kind of compressor/EQ/Delay/Reverb/etc. I used on that song.

Also, this does not sound like a question. This sounds much more like a statement to me.
 
Blue Groove said:
Somebody finally mentioned it...electronic harmonic distortion.

My Electrical Engineer/Programmer and I looked into doing it for our company (we are starting a boutique audio company) We could build a close duplicate, but you would have to buy a $7500 Mac to run it. The RAM requirement (about 7.5 GHz of ECC) for it would exceed the Ram capabilities of a PC. It would run one copy.

Then you'd pay another $2000-$3000 for the plugin (the programming is very complicated, and would cost a fortune)

I'd rather own several of the real deal for that price.

Tried the new Nebula plugin? It's supposed to VERY accurately model outboard gear INCLUDING the distortion. It is NOT impulse response, it's some new technology they developed. It's sounds really, really good. I'm gonna buy it when I upgrade my comp to 2x or 4x core. Right now My computer can only run like 3 instances of it!

From what I've tried, it adds has a "deep" quality, like it has more depth and width than normal plugins.
 
mshilarious said:
Let's also not forget that to maximize use of outboard compressor, you would need D/A/D to match.


Why do you need D/A/D to run a compressor? It can be used before the converters, or if you mix analog, you just patch it in..........you just need two TT cables! :D
 
Well, most usually like to record as dry as possible and then apply effects, even compression, after the recording is done.

I know the occasional compression is recorded to tape with no dry track also taken down, but it is usually best advised to record without it and add later. And in that situation, if you are recording on a computer, you have to send the signal from whatever track you want to compress out from the computer to the analog compressor and back again, which adds a set of A/D/A conversions.
 
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