The Only Rack Equipment I'll Use from now on

MadMax said:
I'm just making the observation that plug in quality is now on a comparable level with outboard gear
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That is the basic premise of what you are saying, and that is the premise that some of us are disagreeing with.

It is possible that outboard will become less commonly used in the future, but if that happens it will be mostly due to factors other than tone quality, in my opinion.
 
You may be right Al. I guess my point is since it's hard to qualify sound quality, who's to say one's better than the other. Sure they've got unique sounds, but who decided back in 1970-whatever that the La2a was THE sound that will never be challenged? The music I create and mix isn't supposed to sound like Goodbye Yellow Brick Road or whatever classic sound you want. (Not that I could achieve that anyway).
Music evolves, technology evolves, and sound evolves. I'm just going with the flow.
 
Well, it is an argument, or perhaps at best, a debate, since you and he disagree :)

And his point is that you cannot make the judgement call you are making regarding the quality of VST's vs. analog equipment since you haven't actually done hands-on testing yourself.

I'm assuming you haven't, since, even in the last post, you said you don't feel it necessary to blow tons of cash on outboard gear you can supposedly model perfectly in software.

I haven't done a listening test myself, nor do I plan on it anytime soon, as I don't mix on a computer - I hate it. But that's my personal preference.

Suffice it to say, that those in this thread who have used plugins as well as the original gear it is trying to emulate, still prefer the outboard stuff. Maybe someday there will come a time when plugins can 100% perfectly reproduce the effect analog compressors, EQs, etc. have on an audio signal. On that day, all the owners of great outboard gear will throw that ole' garbage out, and go with fast, easy-to-use plugins that can be cloned hundreds of times.

That's not to say that the plugins available now aren't any good. They work just fine, and can produce excellent tracks. Those who have used both, and have the budget to do so, seem to still prefer outboard gear.

We can only hope that one day, computers will replace ALL the fun of working in a studio - from the gear right down to the musicians AND the writing... you'll go up to File -> New -> Pop Song, and up will pop an editor window with selectable lists like "Major key / minor key", "Female/male vocalist", "Piano / Guitar oriented song", etc etc... and the computer will just select a set of chord progressions for verse, chorus and bridge from a huge database of what it knows people like to hear, and then selects soundbanks of instruments, puts together a rhythm section, a smokin hot solo on whatever the lead instrument is, select a voice from the same database, and then apply all those fancy VST plugins to each track, and spit out a final, mastered wav file for you to burn and sell.

Hell, they could even design a dynamic 3D world consisting of the studio, musicians, and the artist & engineers, so you can watch them doing what we used to do in the "analog" world.

But that would just be silly...

And sad, because it isn't so completely far-fetched that I can just laugh it off and go back to other business :(
 
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"I think a more likely scenario than high quality outboard gear being gone in XX years"-amra

so we've started using roman numerals? ;)
 
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If plugins take over, I'll be there to gobble up the remains of the analogue stuff.

I like knobs, I like classic cars, and new cars. I like not having air conditioning in an old convertible, no power steering...you get the point (I hope)
If plugins take over, i'll use the old stuff for the human interface, alongside the new stuff of course.

There are new comps and eqs out there that don't have that 70's sound, and still sound better than any plugin.

I think they need to update bit depth alot (at least 64 bit) before worring about plugin quality.
 
These days I was comparing the last CD (I´m playing some gtr tracks) by a female singer I play with and her first album.The last (2003),recorded using: digi 002 (pres too), and all mixed using plugins. The "old" (recorded in 1997), was tottaly made with adat, all hardware eq ,compression, reverb ...both were recorded with similar instruments ("miked/ line instruments / drum samples" ), are very well recorded,with great musicians and she has a beautifull, sweet voice.
At first listening, the last ("digi 002")CD seems "cleaner /on face", but a deep audition and the "old/hardware" CD ... has a warmer vox, has more "deep" and punch, the reverb sounds much fuller, stage is better, instruments has more "dimension"...


Ciro

my songs
www.soundclick.com/openstation
 
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cusebassman said:
Well, it is an argument, or perhaps at best, a debate, since you and he disagree :)

And his point is that you cannot make the judgement call you are making regarding the quality of VST's vs. analog equipment since you haven't actually done hands-on testing yourself.

I'm assuming you haven't, since, even in the last post, you said you don't feel it necessary to blow tons of cash on outboard gear you can supposedly model perfectly in software.
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I never said I can model it perfectly. I said same quality, but a different flavor. My whole point is that the difference is subjective.

cusebassman said:
I haven't done a listening test myself, nor do I plan on it anytime soon, as I don't mix on a computer - I hate it. But that's my personal preference.
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If you did it for a while, you'd probably learn to like it.

cusebassman said:
Suffice it to say, that those in this thread who have used plugins as well as the original gear it is trying to emulate, still prefer the outboard stuff.
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And I say that most people stick with what they're comfortable with. I agree that there are differences. But the bottom line can only come down to preference.

cusebassman said:
That's not to say that the plugins available now aren't any good. They work just fine, and can produce excellent tracks.
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My point exactly!

cusebassman said:
Those who have used both, and have the budget to do so, seem to still prefer outboard gear.

We can only hope that one day, computers will replace ALL the fun of working in a studio - from the gear right down to the musicians AND the writing... you'll go up to File -> New -> Pop Song, and up will pop an editor window with selectable lists like "Major key / minor key", "Female/male vocalist", "Piano / Guitar oriented song", etc etc... and the computer will just select a set of chord progressions for verse, chorus and bridge from a huge database of what it knows people like to hear, and then selects soundbanks of instruments, puts together a rhythm section, a smokin hot solo on whatever the lead instrument is, select a voice from the same database, and then apply all those fancy VST plugins to each track, and spit out a final, mastered wav file for you to burn and sell.

Hell, they could even design a dynamic 3D world consisting of the studio, musicians, and the artist & engineers, so you can watch them doing what we used to do in the "analog" world.

But that would just be silly...
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I agree.
 
Blue Groove said:
I think they need to update bit depth alot (at least 64 bit) before worring about plugin quality.
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What makes you say that?

24 bit already far surpasses any hardware playback device's ability to reproduce it. I think they need much better audio hardware before "updating bit depth", but that's just my humble opinion.
 
I used to use the computer for recording a little bit, but then I started working 9 hours a day at a software engineering firm, and I lost all interest in working with computers after work. I may be missing out on some great featuresof software that I just don't have the financial means to do in hardware, but with a few compressors, 16-24 mono channels, and a few outboard effects on top of my mics and pre's, I am more than content.

I would like to upgrade to an HD24 though, so I can drag individual tracks into the PC to do some editing, and then put em back out on the HD recorder to mix back on the analog console though. Just don't have the cash at the moment to upgrade to the HD24 (got the powerBook already :P)... that would solve both the dilemma of recording between 16 and 24 bit, and it would give me the best of both worlds... guess I'll keep on saving :)
 
See, I think the aversion to digital is by folks who are used to analog and want digital to sound just like analog. Different flavors that'll never be the same.
But there's a whole batch of young'ns out there that are going to take over in a few years who never heard of tape.
 
There is a whole bunch of younger engineers that do know about tape and a quality signal chain also. I don't think that there really is an aversion anymore. Digital has become pretty well accepted. The fact of the matter though is that the majority of the people who are currently succesful in this industry still understand the importance of quality. YOU may not think that there is much of a difference between plugins and outboard as far as quality goes. YOU may not hear much difference. Professionals that do this on a regular basis however tend to find that the difference is much more than just subjective. We all understand that "good" and "bad" are realtive terms to the person using them, but there are still some fairly widely accepted realities. One of those just happens to be that in many areas digital still lacks. Sure it is improving, but analog components are in no real danger of losing their stronghold and value pretty soon.

I guess in the end what I am really disagreeing with is your assumption (which it is since you have never used any of the stuff you are talking about) that the plugins are really at the same quality level as the outboard stuff it is attempting to emulate. There are certainly some plugins that are ahead of the pack in my opinion, but none of them offer the real "magic" that happens with a lot of the nicer preamps, comps, and EQ's.
 
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Tape is used (and will always be used as long as tape is available) way more than you think, it is still a standard in many of the big studios, everyone has at least A studer. I hope digital gets better, it's much easier to use (for the most part) but mix from tape, then mix from digital, six hours straight each and then we'll see if you can tell me that digital is the same. ;)
 
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mshilarious said:
You know, if you pro boys were smart, you'd be on prosumer forums saying stuff like "hardware sucks ass, sell it all to me at a loss.
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SonicAlbert said:
Don't need to, folks are doing that already. :D
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Hey, maybe the jokes on us. Maybe Max REALLY is a pro just trying to get us to sell off our hardware gear. :D --of which I don't own any. :(
 
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