no preamp vs cheap preamp

billmcdonald

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Ive heard good and bad things about the cheaper preamps. I am not super picky, but I cant have things distorting and stuff. Most of the stuff I will be recording is metal. Is it absolutely necessary to have a preamp? If so, what should I get? Im on a budget (arent we all :p ) and Ive been looking at some of the ART preamps, and the Delta DMP3.

Also, would a "good" solid state preamp be better than a cheap "starved plate" tube preamp?

Do you guys think it would be worth it just to go without a preamp for a while and save up for something in the 6-800 dollar price range?

Any help/advice is appreciated. :)
 
Well, you have to have somekind of preamp to plug your mic into...

If you already have something that you're happy with then save for something really good.
 
something is better than nothing but dont assume that your something is the best thing. go for a good solid state preamp and get a tube preamp when you get enough money
 
billmcdonald said:
Do you guys think it would be worth it just to go without a preamp for a while and save up for something in the 6-800 dollar price range?

Yes.

If you have a mixer, use the preamps in that until you have saved up for a much better outboard unit.
 
Pre Amps are one of the most over rated pieces of gear...The Preamp is the holy grail on the recording message boards.............BS.......You will get great results with a mid priced pre amp. Save the big bucks for your monitors. There you will hear whats right or wrong with your gear or music.

The Pre Amps on the SoundCraft Folio are nice, even the Mackies and the Art stuff is not bad for those on a lower budget. You will sell your CDs if your music is good and most people will not know the difference. Hell most people cannot tell synth horns from real ones and most people don't listen to a CD as an only activity either in an anacholic chamber....more likely a noisy car or on a pocket player though $10 earphones.


For around $400 a channel you can get a good enough pre amp to avoid embarrasement if thats your worry. Look I met a guy in Branson who has a studio and he has (gasp) Behringer gear in his rack. YEp !

Heres the URL. http://www.nothm.com/equipframe.htm


Look at his equiptment and client list. Its not about the gear as much as the ear. Let the Elitists fight over $2000 pre amps. You dont need to get into that world. Those guys use gear in place of ears to attract clients and get the big wow from other engineers. Many clients just want a good clean recording and the gear availabel today to the masses is plenty good enough for that. The thousands of high dollar gear studios going out of busines is a testament to that. Think of it this way....A guy wears a Rolex watch for one reason...not becasue it keeps better time than a Timex..or has better modern technology...nope.......Peole wear those thingsto Impress.......That world exists everywhere and audio does not get a pass...People love to say they have a certain piece of gear only few would or could buy....There are diminishing returns in the audio world the more you spend. After all the end users are ripping your $2000 pre Amped recording into 128bit MP3s!!!!

Gary has some nice gear. But also some people on these boards would call garbage. He displays his "garbage" proudly and he is still in business while other "floating Modern Pro Tools studios with all the latest bells and whistles starve......Why? Becasue quality clients buy ears....not gear.

I use a Joe Meek VCQ1 and also have a couple ART MP'a and an ART VLA. I have been a gear whore for 25 years and of all the CDs I have produced and sold I never got a CD back becaue it did not technically sound quite right or I used a terrible pre amp lol .........content is another thing..LOL

I wish I had the quality/price ratio today you younger guys have....I have spent less time trying to get decent equiptment and noise from my studio and more time making music.............Guys on this board are making nice recordings with Octiva Mics and ART MP 's Check out the mic forum.
 
.......so at what point of the morning do you look in the mirror and say "I am a good person and gosh darn it, people like me." :D i saw 2 pieces of behringer gear and just because its on his list doesnt mean its in his normally used signal chain..and .....it was two pieces! the way you were talking, i was expecting to find the MX9000, some behri monitors and Uli Behringer slapping him on the ass with everyone being all smiles. we all know you dont need the most expensive pres to get great recordings. but its nice to have quality products. 6-800 bucks for mixer is different than $2000 for a mixer.
 
"For around $400 a channel you can get a good enough pre amp to avoid embarrasement if thats your worry. Look I met a guy in Branson who has a studio and he has (gasp) Behringer gear in his rack. YEp !"

In one sentence you say $400 a channel and produce a link to what is represented as a studio that uses Behringer. What you don't say is, Gary in Branson uses a $29,000 D&R Orion console with 34 modules (pres), a $3000+ Requisite Preamp, (8) $1200 Neumann dual channel Pre's, the 5 Aphex pre's are $500ish ea., a Blue Ridg Farm DI @ $1500 used. It's all about the gear. He has a Behringer DeNoiser, and of the 12 Comps, 1 is the Behringer 1952 which is probably used for effect.

You make it sound like this guy USES alot of Behringer or has great clients with $400 a channel pre's. He's not/doesn't.

Looking at his equipment list, his weak spot, if any, is in the monitor dept. He has a couple descent monitors, but hardly top of the line. The Dynaudios are good, and are $2500 Pr., but the rest is good/alright.
 
Yeah, because there's no difference in sound quality between a m-audio pre and a neve pre, hahahahaha





haha






ha

Ok, I'm good now. Preamps are THE MOST Important part of the process other than the mics, and even then, a good preamp can get a lot out of a not so good mic.

Anyway, welcome to the forum.
 
these questions are hard to answer. if you want a cheaper pre amp, get one. if you feel like waiting wait. i would recomend the VTB1 for a cheap preamp. i dont think the ARTs are very highly recomended. the VTB1 will give you something to start out with, and get a taste for external pres. i would skip the ART though. i dont think its worth it. there is cheap, and then there is shit. i believe the ART falls under shit.
 
TomBo777 said:
Pre Amps are one of the most over rated pieces of gear...The Preamp is the holy grail on the recording message boards.............BS.......You will get great results with a mid priced pre amp. Save the big bucks for your monitors. There you will hear whats right or wrong with your gear or music.

The Pre Amps on the SoundCraft Folio are nice, even the Mackies and the Art stuff is not bad for those on a lower budget. You will sell your CDs if your music is good and most people will not know the difference. Hell most people cannot tell synth horns from real ones and most people don't listen to a CD as an only activity either in an anacholic chamber....more likely a noisy car or on a pocket player though $10 earphones.


For around $400 a channel you can get a good enough pre amp to avoid embarrasement if thats your worry. Look I met a guy in Branson who has a studio and he has (gasp) Behringer gear in his rack. YEp !

Heres the URL. http://www.nothm.com/equipframe.htm


Look at his equiptment and client list. Its not about the gear as much as the ear.

Your buddy Gary has a pretty impressive list of gear. There are two Behringer pieces on his list, one a denoiser and the other a T1952 compressor. He also has a Manley Vari-Mu and a bunch of DBX, Aphex, Valley, etc. To imply that this guy proudly displays his "garbage" is to miss his entire point I believe.

He doesn't use Behringer preamps, and has a pretty killer mic collection. Let's not even mention his 9 foot Steinway concert grand, the D&R console, and on and on.

I agree with your idea of putting big bucks into the monitors, as that is crucial for a studio. However, I've compared $1,000 a channel preamps to the stuff in low cost boards like those made by Mackie and TASCAM among others, and I've also compared them to low end outboard pres. *No comparison*.

As far as your Rolex comment: you don't record through a wristwatch but you do record through a preamp. The better the preamp the better the sound. It's not about impressing, it's about the sound.

Me personally, I want to be impressed by the sound. I don't spend money on high end gear to impress others, the gear has to impress *me* for me to pull out the wallet.

There's a whole mentality going around on some of these message boards that somehow people that spend heavy money on expensive gear are doing it to impress others or be snobs. I can only speak for myself, but the only reason I buy expensive gear is because it sounds great. I don't care about impressing anybody with a gear list. I don't advertise my gear list, and it's not up on my site. If I could get the same sound in cheaper gear, you bet I would do it, in a split second. But that is just not the way it works. Quality costs money.

That's why I would advise the original poster of this thread to save up for some real preamps rather than waste the money on cheapies. The difference between a quality preamp and a low end model is startling. I personally wouldn't go below a Grace 101, GT BRICK, FMR RNP. From there on up you have some good options. You get into another level at $1,000 a channel.
 
borntoplease said:
i dont think the ARTs are very highly recomended. the VTB1 will give you something to start out with, and get a taste for external pres. i would skip the ART though. i dont think its worth it. there is cheap, and then there is shit. i believe the ART falls under shit.

What exactly is that based on? Personal experience? Honestly, I would love to hear any tracks/mixes that turned to pure shit because someone used an ART pre, because i have never heard that happen. I agree that preamps are important...but yeah, they are relatively overated.
 
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SonicAlbert said:
There's a whole mentality going around on some of these message boards that somehow people that spend heavy money on expensive gear are doing it to impress others or be snobs.

True. It is also true that there is a mentality going around on message boards that "cheap/certain brand automatically means unusable crap-so-your-wasting-your-money-spend-hundreds-more". This advice is commonly given without any awareness for how that gear fits within someones recording objectives or stage of the game. And even worse, there is usually absolutely zero recorded evidence to back up such claims! If peice of equipment X sucks so bad as compared to peice of equipment Y, then lets hear a good ol A/B, with some mixes to prove it :)
 
Lets,for the sake of argument,throw these preamps into THREE catagories...

1. Cheap.aka: inexpensive...I would say anything under $400 is in this catagory.Most are built by a robot.The traces on their boards are thin and the values on the internal components is barely enough to cover the voltages required to do the job.The power supply will only be adequate.Many will have some features and AMAZINGLY will offer MORE features than a lot of the high-end critters.Sonically,in the hands of a very competent engineer, they will reproduce the sound of the source.What they wont do is work under heavy usage 24/7,the failure rate for a lot of intense input will be higher, and the aforementioned engineer will have to work particularly hard and diligently to attain depth of field and width in the sound.Yes it can be done but there will ALWAYS be something missing.A thorough investigation and graphing of the sonic curves and characteristics thereof throughout the complete range of sound, would go a long way in revealing the weaknesses inherent with gear of this nature. And much like the less expensive mics, there would be a certain tendancy throughout all the manufacturers offerings.Of course some will sound different than others.A different topology,more stages,a different way of making gain,different op-amps by different manufacturers etc etc..

2.Mid-range...aka...er mid-range in price...
This would be from the $400 to $700 but not inclusive as you can buy some single-channel lunchbox racked modules for the upper end of this price point.So for the sake of argument, lets say all inclusive rackmounted,pres and channel strips at this price.These are getting better as a lot will have iron in the system...ala TRANSFORMERS....this is not a kids toy or show about toys that become super-heroes...There will be a bit more upper-end engineering applied here but really not that far gone from cheap...The housing will be a lot heavier-duty and the power supplys will be getting closer to dealing with a contiuous high level of input and abuse.These units will last longer,retain their resale a bit better and generally have a sound right out of the box that can be attained by most anyone.When you crank the dials, there will be a more definate change in the sound.There will be features once again especially in a strip...LOTS of FEATURES...some you may never use or are only there to command a bigger dollar figure and dont work as well as a similar standalone unit might.But hey, you've saved money and headache time on hooking it up....These units are capable of reproducing the source sound as well as adding some of their own uniqueness to the signal especially if there are TRANSFORMERS involved.The 'engineer' will have less trouble getting his sound out of these and there will be a larger field and width to that sound.Excellent choices for those with a couple of years of doing this under the belt.

3.High-end...aka..da shizzits...anywhere from 6 or 7 hundred up to whatever the market will bear...I use 6 or 7 bills as a starting point because I believe that you can buy a used API 512c module somewhere for this price.It may not be racked but it'll be available.
This is where it becomes a crapshoot. There are SO MANY boutique,and small mfgrs. building quality high-end pieces that actually work.And this also becomes a style kinda thing.Tubes?FET?IC's?Tranformers?In and Out?Variable Impedance at the front end?Vintage,Clone,or new revolutionary design?And The FEATURES!....One of the best sounding highest level audiofile type pres has a KNOB...and a SWITCH and ANOTHER SWITCH...and the just for fun ONE MORE SWITCH...thats it.Except for all the junk inside, it looks like a complete depantsing when you consider the price.Except that all your tracks will sound great.Novice,rookie,semi-pro,pro,...knobGawd...etc.This stuff will operate at levels 24/7...its supposed to.Sure gear breaks, but less seldom for the shizzit than all the others.This is industrial stuff...Its why a lot of the best designs have been around for umpteen years without a lot of changes to the theory,simply some upgrades to the components.Those who have not heard nor have used high-end gear really have no idea what thry're not hearing.Those who have upgraded to say a much better level of monitors and have gasped in amazement at the differenc,.....the highend electronic stuff does the same thing.Its a lot less work to get really good sounds...mic placement becomes an art as each move of an inch or so shows up as much or more than twisting a knob.High-end gear is not for everyone.Someone whos simply a hobbiest writing and recording at home can relax knowing that using cheap stuff is fine fir what they need.Someone who turns on the gear every week or two and piddles around with it can go there too.You are not violating any set rule about recording.Those who spend a lot of time on their own projects as well as others with an eye towards a true representation of their music had better look to the mid to highend for their gear.Thsoe that have a profession at this and have the electricity on ALL THE TIME had better buy the best tools possible.The maintainence costs alone to trying to do this with lesser gear is more than enough to make up the difference in initial cost per hours of uninterupted usage.You realize that the least expensive auto in the world to drive and maintain is a Rolls.

Thats all I wanted to say....I dont condem anyone for their gear purchases.I just hope that outlining what a person might expect of each level will help towards a more knowledgeable choice.Hell, if it passes signal, it works.What you do with it with the skills you have is a matter of choice.
 
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billmcdonald said:
Ive heard good and bad things about the cheaper preamps. I am not super picky, but I cant have things distorting and stuff. Most of the stuff I will be recording is metal. Is it absolutely necessary to have a preamp? If so, what should I get? Im on a budget (arent we all :p ) and Ive been looking at some of the ART preamps, and the Delta DMP3.

Also, would a "good" solid state preamp be better than a cheap "starved plate" tube preamp?

Do you guys think it would be worth it just to go without a preamp for a while and save up for something in the 6-800 dollar price range?

Any help/advice is appreciated. :)
If you have 600 dollars to spend on a preamp, you don't have to ask. Since you ask, the answer is: You have no use of a 600 dollar preamp. It won't help your sound a bit.

The day it WILL help your sound, you are not asking questions on a homerecording forum.
 
cavedog101 said:
Those who have not heard nor have used high-end gear really have no idea what thry're not hearing.Those who have upgraded to say a much better level of monitors and have gasped in amazement at the differenc,.....the highend electronic stuff does the same thing.Its a lot less work to get really good sounds...mic placement becomes an art as each move of an inch or so shows up as much or more than twisting a knob.High-end gear is not for everyone.Someone whos simply a hobbiest writing and recording at home can relax knowing that using cheap stuff is fine fir what they need.Someone who turns on the gear every week or two and piddles around with it can go there too.You are not violating any set rule about recording.Those who spend a lot of time on their own projects as well as others with an eye towards a true representation of their music had better look to the mid to highend for their gear.Thsoe that have a profession at this and have the electricity on ALL THE TIME had better buy the best tools possible.

This is good stuff cavedog. I agree with your categorizations, but there are other factors.

What if the hobbiest really wants to sound better, for example? If someone has $600-800 to spend on a preamp, is that better preamp a waste of their money? I really don't think so.

It is wonderful to read posts from people that want to sound as good as they can and are willing to spend more of their hard earned money to do so. That to me means that they are becoming educated in this stuff. That maybe some of the advice that I and others are spreading about "quality geaer matters" is taking root. And that they are listening to their ears and something is telling them it can be better.

It seems a little callous to say that if you ask a question here at homerecording then better gear won't help your sound. The whole point of places like this is to educate oneself and to find help and advice for studio related issues. And I think that asking a question and taking that advice *will* possibly help ones sound. At the very least, when the higher quality preamp is taken out of its box, plugged and heard for the first time, it may provide an epiphany of sorts, where the advice gets connected to the ears.

I know what happened the first time I spent more money than I wanted to on a truly high quality piece of gear. It was truly eye-opening, and I was never able to turn back from that, either. There are still old message board posts from me in my "prosumer" gear days. Posts where I passionately argued how my Roland blah-blah was just as good as the esoteric and expensive super blah-blah. Now that I've used, heard, and owned some pretty high end gear, I know what I was missing before. And as cavedog says, you really don't know what you are missing until you *hear* what you are missing.

An example: I needed to track my Steinway last year for a film score. Using Shure KSM32 mics, I started out going through my TASCAM DM-24 preamps. Good, clean, perfectly usable. i had a pair of Presonus TubePRE's at that time that I was reviewing for SonicState. So I recorded some test tracks through them as well. The same: good, clean usable tracks. Then I hooked up my Grace 201 and did some test tracks there as well. HUGE. Big gigantic *gorgeous* sounding piano tracks. Night and day, no comparison to the budget preamps. The point is, the budget preamp tracks sounded fine until I heard the Grace 201 preamp tracks. Then that really put the others in their place.

The thing about this stuff is you need to hear it in your own setting, on your own voice, on your own instrument. That's what makes comparisons hard.

But I will have to say that mic preamps are one of those things where money does buy quality. At $800-1,000 per channel and up you *are* going to get a stellar preamp. We are just talking flavors at that point.
 
If he's on a real budget and looking at the DMP and the ART preamps, then the rest of this thread is pretty much meaningless. Of the two, I'd pick the DMP3. Mine is like a crescent wrench - I use it all the time. Nice pre at a killer price.

I don't have much experience with better pres, but I prefer the DMP3 over the ART and both over the low end Presonus. I've gotten distracted with the Mackie Onyx pres lately, though; I just bought a big Onyx mixer and now I'm lugging the damn thing everywhere just to use the preamps.
 
In one sentence you say $400 a channel and produce a link to what is represented as a studio that uses Behringer. What you don't say is, Gary in Branson uses a $29,000 D&R Orion console with 34 modules (pres), a $3000+ Requisite Preamp, (8) $1200 Neumann dual channel Pre's, the 5 Aphex pre's are $500ish ea., a Blue Ridg Farm DI @ $1500 used. It's all about the gear. He has a Behringer DeNoiser, and of the 12 Comps, 1 is the Behringer 1952 which is probably used for effect.

You missed the point. Reading some of what people say about Beheringer and other "inferior" gear here leads me to believe you would NEVER find a piece of crap like that in ANY professional Studio.....I guess many of you would take the crap out of the rack before taking the picture........and again look how you add the prices of everything as if that has any real relevance. Price is not always an indicator of quality. Bigger fool theory. Especially in Audio... higher prices bring diminishing returns in a hurry in Audio. I’m not saying the recorded sound will not be better with better Pre amps. I’m saying in the end it won’t really matter if the content is not there..Its not gonna be the
"Big wow" that would make the recording terrible if it were not there.and when it’s played back on gear that cannot even reveal the subtleties of the recording chain.

I have heard and can afford the elite pre amps and for me personally it’s not worth the extra expense. And people who cannot afford them at all should not be made to feel they cannot make a valid product without them. They certainly can and do.

20 years ago you had to spend BIG bucks to make a saleable product. Not today. I’m sorry but listening to Lo fi 8 bit drum samples through a $4000 pre amp ripped to MP3 does not make sense to me.

If someone feels handicapped by "low cost gear" I feel bad for them because it’s a bottomless pit once you go there. They will gety trapped in the world of bigger and better. That road never ends.

The "How did I ever live without it" is normal talk for those who spend thousands of extra dollars on something they could have done with out. That’s fine. But don't tell those who choose or cannot pay the price their gear is irrelevant or of a quality that cannot produce a viable product. The end user of the final stereo track will not know the difference either they will like the song or not.....
 
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......like money never enters into the equation...its part of the standard process of knowing about a product....heres a standard template: name of product, example of sound(thin, muddy, sizzle, dark, bright), cost of product, place where i can get said product. the truth of the matter is that i dont see why that branson guy would have a couple of behringer pieces unless he bought them to mess around. he cant take them seriously...not with what he can afford
 
The cost of a product in my world has no real bearing on its quality...especially in such a subjective field as audio.........

I don't buy things based on what they cost. I do pass on buying things based on cost though. I do not blindly assume higher prices means better.
I need real proof of that...and then.. how much better.

You think a Bentley is worth $100,000 more than a Chrysler? I dont.
YOu think a stainless steel Rolex is worth $5970 more than TIMEX? Not me.
You think a little man on a Polo Horse makes a T shirt worth $53? Not I.

I do not believe that $3000+ Requisite Preamp is 5 times better then my VCQ1 aurally. But thats just me. .

Many here, I am assuming have Home Studios and record their own music and maybe some friends. There is no need for the Big buck gear to do that. No one will know the difference.....its unfortunate for those who did spend a small fortune on Elite gear but its true.

In the end its music on a CD that untrained and abused ears will listen to and either like the music or not regardless of what preamp was used on the lead vocalist. I would bet even A/B ing the same track they could not tell the difference......nor will it make a sad song better.
 
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